Don your anorak and get technical about airplanes.
#752771 by Nottingham Nick
16 Aug 2010, 12:05
According to The Times on Saturday 14th August 2010 - Virgin Atlantic’s 2009 accounts show the airline received £58m compensation from an unnamed supplier that failed to meet its contractual obligations. Industry sources claim the supplier is Boeing; Virgin ordered 15 787 Dreamliners, worth $2.8bn, three years ago, but production problems mean its first delivery is not expected until December or January. The accounts also showed the airline paid £47.6m to settle civil claims in the fuel surcharge-fixing case (Times).

I can't post a link to the story, as The Times website is now subscription only.


Nick
#752992 by willd
17 Aug 2010, 18:53
tonywestsider wrote:You're right. For now, VS is receiving new A330-300s next year in the interim. Ironically, the delivery of their A380s will also be 2015, making both new Boeing and Airbus deliveries occurring the same year.


The 330 order is not a stop gap measure IMHO. THe 787 order was partly to replace the 343s. As far as we know the 343s are staying (i.e. nothing concrete has been confirmed by VS at this stage). If VS were looking for a stop gap then Boeing would have come up with an answer (whether that be 777s or some planes from the used market).

I just dont believe that VS on hearing of the 787 delay went and ordered the 330 (with its own waiting list). Plus the 787 and 330, despite being two engined, will be very different aircraft!
#752996 by slinky09
17 Aug 2010, 20:40
I hear at least four of the 343s are going next year, back to the lessors.

VS got good slots on the 330 line because they replaced the outstanding six 346 orders. So yes, Will, they did come in part to counter the 787-9 delays and to replace the 343s.
#753000 by Denzil
17 Aug 2010, 21:29
Can't see four A343's going back next year, perhaps after they have 3 or 4 A330's they'll be on their way. More to the whole A330 deal than meets the eye, i'm sure the A346 & A380 orders come into play.

I see the four A343's that CX has parked at VCV are not to be operated again & will be returned to lessor when the lease ends (next year), i'm sure they are all ex SQ.
#753002 by Bill S
17 Aug 2010, 22:28
Bringing the two 346s back increases VS flexibility.

One coming back late this year when the ORD flights also pause and B&S is lightest.
Unlikely to be more than one from LGW fleet at refit at one time.

How many 333s are arriving next year? It was originally 4 or 5 afair

The AR 4 rumoured may be ex CX but there are others supposedly increasing their 343 lease. Where are the two for Finnair coming from?

VHOL & VSEA may eventually go for parts but although they are a good age, the first 5 yrs were not heavily used.
#753006 by slinky09
18 Aug 2010, 06:44
5 x A333 in 2011, 5 in 2012, we know the first two will be in the LGW config. No.s 3, 4, and 5 with new UC and IFE, Could easily see 4 x A343s going late 2011 when ORD stops in October ...

Wasn't it VSEA that had V:Port fitted? Maybe less likely to go early?

The Finnair 343s are coming from Air France.
#753009 by honey lamb
18 Aug 2010, 07:23
It is G-VSUN that has V-Port
#753013 by Bill S
18 Aug 2010, 10:08
honey lamb wrote:It is G-VSUN that has V-Port

The first in service with VS (4/96) and also on a lease with ILFC...
(VHOL & VSEA are with GTMG; VAIR & VELD with ILFC)
Not sure if VFAR is leased but she is the youngest (6/98).

I would guess that ideally the first 333 may come some time before the others so the other four will be late in the year when loads are lighter - it deals with part of the ETOPS restrictions with only one aircraft.
#753027 by clarkeysntfc
18 Aug 2010, 12:31
I'm slightly dubious that we'll ever see a Virgin A380. I don't see that it's a good fit on their network (particularly whilst globally we're still in a fairly poor economic state,)and the industry seems to be moving more towards higher frequency of service on smaller twin engine aircraft on routes like LON-NYC.

I'd imagine the A380's would be ideal for LGW-MCO (in higher-density 650ish passenger config), and some LHR routes like SFO, NRT and LAX.

If they're bringing the 2 A346's out of storage, surely this must mean some flights are being re-introduced otherwise the aircraft won't be utilised?
#753051 by Bill S
18 Aug 2010, 16:57
The ideal routes for the 380 are the MCO (both LGW & MAN).
Both can frequently fill 2 x 744s.
B&S are different from the LHR routes; it makes little difference when in the day the flight takes place - there is even flexibility between days. So no advantage in multiple flights.
The disadvantage is that if one goes tech. then that's a big hole to fill.
The 380 is a big PR coup. It will draw in pax from other carriers and VS already hold by far the biggest share of the market to MCO from EU. Also very lucrative with the VH revenue.

380 on other routes is less likely but there are many times when SFO fills a 744 even at high prices as does LAS. There may be opportunities to use the 380 on occasion but the big problem with that is the very different mix of seat class needed.

The lack of UC and PE seats on the LGW fleet has probably lost some lucrative custom - PE seems to be almost always full and UC full throughout the holiday periods. Lack of reward seats is a good indicator. It will take a while for VS to build them back up to their full potential but the 380 could be a big draw.

I just hope that VS have the balls to take a lower density config and work on building up the high revenue custom.

VS have always had a reputation for catering for the upper end of the market - having the latest and best in seating. The biggest danger is for them to be seen as just another charter operation. But then VS will never be able to compete with the low cost B&S specialists.
UC & PE used to be the "best". No longer. ANZ is way ahead with their new PE cabin. That is the sort of development that used to be a VS speciality. That is what is needed on the MCO routes imho. I am looking forward to seeing the new UCS - but not without some apprehension - I believe VS have to come up with something special there. Hopefully a new PE layout will soon follow - perhaps with the 789 and 380s.

A lot comes down to the question whether VS still have that drive to grasp opportunities. VX seem to be showing that the Virgin brand can grow and be successful. VA seem to be treading water.
#753056 by slinky09
18 Aug 2010, 17:23
While I agree with what you say Bill, I too am sceptical we'll ever see a A380 flying in VS colours. It's too much plane that has limited route fit, though as you say MCO would suit.

Having said that, where slot restrictions are a problem, i.e. LHR, replacing two A346s to LAX with one A380 frees a pair of slots for expansion. Similarly for HKG if the second returns, but then would it need to fly on to SYD half empty ... or doubling up two JFK flights ... only thing is, when the economy tanks again that's a lot of empty seats on an expensive aircraft. Also, rotating planes on a limited network is not going to be as cost effective as with a bigger fleet ...

Unless they're configured only for b&s routes therefore, and that means London / Manchester to Orlando. Then VS would only need 3 or 4?
#753063 by Bill S
18 Aug 2010, 19:04
I suspect part of the problem is the separate parts of the Virgin brand.

SYD-HKG may not be half empty for VA. They run a 777 in parallel to VS. Similarly SYD-LAX.
What is missing is a V Europe.

Perhaps VS should actually be truly intercontinental rather than considered as V Atlantic. One full service Virgin Global interconnecting the other segments.

For such an airline the 380 is ideal.
#753129 by willd
19 Aug 2010, 19:32
slinky09 wrote:I hear at least four of the 343s are going next year, back to the lessors.

VS got good slots on the 330 line because they replaced the outstanding six 346 orders. So yes, Will, they did come in part to counter the 787-9 delays and to replace the 343s.


I don't agree. Yes the 330's fill a potential gap but I dont believe that VS went and ordered the 330 to only fill the gap/replace the aging 343s (which were to be replaced by ontime 787s). They have been purchased to allow the airline expand. You dont go and order twenty odd on a whim I think it was always part of the VS long term plan to purchase the 330s as well as the 787s. However it is a bit of a blessing they can help out with the 787 delay.
#753131 by Bill S
19 Aug 2010, 20:00
willd wrote:
slinky09 wrote:I hear at least four of the 343s are going next year, back to the lessors.

VS got good slots on the 330 line because they replaced the outstanding six 346 orders. So yes, Will, they did come in part to counter the 787-9 delays and to replace the 343s.


I don't agree. Yes the 330's fill a potential gap but I dont believe that VS went and ordered the 330 to only fill the gap/replace the aging 343s (which were to be replaced by ontime 787s). They have been purchased to allow the airline expand. You dont go and order twenty odd on a whim I think it was always part of the VS long term plan to purchase the 330s as well as the 787s. However it is a bit of a blessing they can help out with the 787 delay.

Surely you are both saying the same thing.
The 333s fulfil a number of purposes:
    They do offer a replacement for 343s.
    They provide a smaller aircraft to allow expansion
    They counter the 789 delays.
    They are more efficient.

It also makes good sense not to rely upon a sole supplier or a single aircraft. The 333 complements the 789.

The orders are for all of the above reasons.
The future fleet (2016 on) surely will be a mix of 333, 789 and a super wide body (either 359 or 380)

The really interesting issue is - where will the route expansion be? The quantity of extra tin suggests its not just going to be tinkering around the edges of the network.
#753134 by slinky09
19 Aug 2010, 22:49
Bill S wrote:The really interesting issue is - where will the route expansion be? The quantity of extra tin suggests its not just going to be tinkering around the edges of the network.


Until proven otherwise, I will disagree with Will, the Boeing compensation, delay of the B789 till 2015+ meant VS had to do something...

However Bill, let's assume you and Will are correct - where are these slots coming from. Heathrow slots are publicly traded, there is no news on VS buying new ones ... in fact I suspect part of the reason why two A346s were stored was because VS was renting 2x2 slots from UA until 2009 or 2010 and had to give those back. So VS really has no room for Heathrow expansion ... ah, so LGW and MAN and GLA.

So, if not Heathrow, why are three of next years A333s being fitted with new UC ... perhaps to replace A343s which are massively less fuel efficient for routes like ORD or IAD?

Really, I have no idea, just the parts don't add up.
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