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#936723 by kevbro
20 Jul 2017, 17:10
my first posting - the title says it all and is quite true.
my ongoing complaints to Virgin have resulted in an emotionless corporate brush off.
I'm so mad at them that I have created a webpage detailing what we have had to put up with at http://www.kevbro.co.uk/virgin.htm

Sir Richard Branson has been alleged to have once said:
"A complaint is a chance to turn a customer into a lifelong friend. I say that seriously, not as some press release baloney"
if so, I hope he somehow gets sight of my webpage!

if I were to try and explain it all in this post it would be quite enormous, and hard to read.
so if anyone is interested, a look at my webpage is the best option. whether you agree with my view or not, it is an interesting tale!
#936724 by hazban
20 Jul 2017, 20:40
I have complete sympathy with the frustration you feel but unfortunately all airlines operate on a commercial, not humanitarian basis. They are covered by their " terms and conditions " which are strongly biased in their favour.
Anyone who travels on a regular basis will have come across similar changes to their well thought out plans. Experience has tought me to "go with the flow" and not get too stressed it is just not worth it!
By the way welcome to the forum, I have gleaned a lot of useful information from the site.
#936726 by gumshoe
20 Jul 2017, 21:10
Welcome to V-Flyer, I'm sorry you're here in such circumstances.

I'm afraid the truth is you're owed very little by Virgin. In common with most airlines schedules can and do change for all manner of operational reasons and one of the risks of booking flights several months upfront is that they'll be retimed or cancelled. Sadly it's a frequent occurrence - US airlines are notorious for it and only this week BA has tinkered with its Autumn/Winter schedule resulting in lots of missed connections.

If your flight is cancelled less than two weeks before departure you're protected under EU law and are entitled to compensation. Outside that, all you're entitled to is to be rebooked on a suitable alternative flight or, if you prefer, to cancel. You're not entitled to, and therefore should not expect, a free upgrade or a discount on your new flight.

And I'm afraid no airline will accept liability for incidental costs like lost hotel or car hire bookings. That is what travel insurance is for so you should check your policy.

The reality is Virgin Atlantic in 2017 is very different to the Virgin Atlantic Sir Richard Branson founded all those years ago. He has hardly anything to do with day-to-day operations any more and it's essentially now a UK subsidiary of Delta (which owns 49%). You're now dealing with a business that's more akin to a multinational corporation and sadly probably need to adjust your customer service expectations accordingly.

Finally a note about Netflights: now you've booked with them, it is them you must deal with if - perish the thought - there are any more changes to your flights. Virgin can't and won't touch your booking until 24 hours before departure although you can, of course, use their website to access Manage My Booking and request seats, special meals etc.
#936730 by kevbro
20 Jul 2017, 23:26
thanks for your comments gumshoe - all good info,
I am not blessed with the funds to travel abroad too often (perhaps 10 times in my life) which is why I got so upset with Virgin.
to me a deal is a deal, but my naivety shines through! - it is quite true that every day we get a little older and wiser.
#936732 by Eggtastico
21 Jul 2017, 07:38
Unfortunately this kind of crap happens. Would getting your flight changed to London be an option?
I have had flight time changes with Virgin from mid PM to late AM that cause a lot of headache to rearrange. Could not go on another day as all my hotels I had booked was on non refundable rates.
I ended up having to fork out an extra £160 on a new train ticket (to travel a day earlier) & a hotel the night before the flight.
To make it worse, coming back we was delayed for around 5 hours & I missed my pre-paid train. Had to pay £300 or 2x tickets. Compensation barely covered the train tickets.
#936735 by Nottingham Nick
21 Jul 2017, 09:53
At the risk of sounding unsympathetic, I agree with other replies.

Is it annoying? - yes.
Is it bad business practice by VS? - yes.
Has it ruined your holiday? - Not even close.

Unfortunately in this day and age of cut throat competition, VS (and all other companies) have to make finance based decisions that they know will annoy some of their customers. They will consolidate and cancel flights to try and stay profitable. It has happened to us a couple of times going to Dubai.

There are a LOT of worse things that can happen to ruin your holiday. With these minor annoyances, you just have to suck it up and get on with life. If you are out of pocket, look to your travel insurance, but I am afraid things like this are the reality of 21st century air travel.

Nick
#936737 by SlimpyJones
21 Jul 2017, 10:23
Put this behind you, look forward to a week in New England with your wife of 50 years. Yes, flight changes are a pain in the arse. Think of it this way - and this is not to sound patronising - but at least you had some notice and can make other arrangements. Some flights are cancelled on the day due to all sorts of reasons.

If you keep dwelling on this you won't enjoy the time away. :)
#936740 by kevbro
21 Jul 2017, 10:48
NICK - I am not a regular flyer and many one here have been kind enough to open my eyes to how flaky it all can be -
but some of your comments are nothing short of insulting - do you work for Virgin perchance? .... you say:
"Has it ruined your holiday? - Not even close. With these minor annoyances, you just have to suck it up and get on with life"

'not even close' indeed!
how would you feel if the most important day in your marriage was so messed up? - would this be a 'minor inconvenience' to you?

Nottingham is the murder capital of the UK - I have now learned it harbours heartless nicks also!
#936741 by NYLON
21 Jul 2017, 11:47
Sorry to hear about this. A small silver lining: I think you'll get better colours with your new dates (admittedly this depends on where you will be for the week). You'll be in mid-to-peak season, rather than peak-to-late (south-to-north). A lot of people try to time it on the late end, and miss out entirely (the journey from glorious reds to nearly-bare branches can take a few days).

I read what Nick (an extremely helpful and long-time poster here) said as follows: I know it's hard, but now that you have your new dates, try and look forward to your holiday, and enjoy what's coming up, rather than spending time going over what has happened, which will only make you angrier.

Send us a trip report when you get back!
#936743 by Traveller2
21 Jul 2017, 12:09
Why is it that when someone has an answer they don't like they resort to the old line "you don't work for........do you"?

What gumshoe said about Netflights is true and I was thinking the very same thing. It is never a great idea to have a third party between yourself and an airline.
#936746 by tontybear
21 Jul 2017, 13:39
So your flight got cancelled (yes it's annoying - they cancelled one of mine a few weeks ago) and you got a refund yet you are still complaining ?

If they did charge you a cancellation fee then that was an error and they should refund that - it's part of EU2611 that when the airline cancells a flight you can have a full refund if the alternative flights offered don't suit.

Did you investigate other options and put them to VS before cancelling? Flying via LHR ont he LHR-BOS flight for example? Yes it would have involved a flight change and a wait at LHR but you'd have had a better chance of keeping your preferred dates.

VS offered you an alternative which you declined - again within your rights. But 3 hours between flights when arriving from an international flight at JFK is perfectly normal to allow you to clear US immigration and customs and then reclear security before boarding the domestic. On the return 1 hr 45 mins is again routine.

As to your hotels did you ask about switching the dates? US hotels are generally quite flexible on this sort of issue if they have rooms available. If you just asked about cancalling then yes they will charge the fees you agreed to when booking.

And I am puzzled that you are so mad at VS that you still booked a VS flight?

And no I don't work for Virgin. And nor does Nottingham Nick - making such accusations is common place when people get answers they don't like.

And he isn't heartless either and nor is Nottingham the murder captial of the UK.
#936748 by DomBres
21 Jul 2017, 15:14
I echo many of the comments above.

Whilst this kind of occurrence is of course frustrating and does inconvenience, it is simply part and parcel of the travel industry.

I also fail to see how Virgin have acted inappropriately in any way. They have provided sufficient notice and offered an alternative date.

Your point about a 3hr layover at JFK as being somewhat extortionate is slightly odd. For an airport of that size, a 3hr period is simply standard and accounts for possible delays in the first flight.

The combative tone that you have employed on this forum and I expect have also used when engaging with Virgin staff, doesn't do your cause any favours. Would I be correct in gauging from your webpage that your goal is simply to shame Virgin into giving you an upgrade?
#936756 by kevbro
21 Jul 2017, 17:07
being offered and alternative date may be legal and proper, and pretty much a common occurrence, but that is not really my point ....
it is beyond any doubt that Virgin's actions have ruined our anniversary.
and yes, I have grown increasingly angry as our too early flight date approaches , and I can do without the Nottingham Nicks of this world.
and yes, an upgrade would pacify me somewhat!
#936757 by Lucydog
21 Jul 2017, 17:24
We all understand how sad and unhappy your feeling. In my opinion I find being calm when feeling angry and talking to the call centre and asking them to give you all options to try and solve the changes, to which do happen a lot for lots of reasons are the best way to come to an acceptable solution, albeit not the original plan. After this type of problem happened to us, I now book all as a package made by me, arranged by virgin holidays. I get a discount they put me in the seats I request ( not guaranteed ), and I always ask for Premium Economy with the option of upgrading if the price comes down, which the lovely ladies at my local shop, let me know asap. So if flights change they sort out my hotels also. I am 60 now and feel more secure doing it this way. I hope you enjoy your holiday.
#936758 by SlimpyJones
21 Jul 2017, 18:22
kevbro wrote:it is beyond any doubt that Virgin's actions have ruined our anniversary.


I respect your frustrations and sympathise that your plans have had to change but I believe you are placing far too much weight on the changes to your flights. Your 50th anniversary is to do a roadtrip of New England. If your anniversary was purely to take direct flights to Boston, then I would agree with you. Yes, Virgin have mucked you about, but in the grand scheme of things, all they have done is changed how you are getting to and from your anniversary trip.

I would ask you this - what do you want your lasting memory of this trip to be, a three hour layover in JFK or a week in New England with your wife?

Again, with the greatest of respects, you need some better perspective on this. Put the flights hassle behind you and look forward to your trip :)
#936759 by Sealink
21 Jul 2017, 18:37
I have been at the receiving end of Virgin's incompetence, and at the time I just see red mist.

I'm aware of how important this day is to you and the holiday too. It's clearly more than just a "Holiday".


That said, if you can, try to project yourself to six months after the holiday. Look back at that schedule change and how you thought it would ruin your trip... except it didn't. Yes it was a bit stressful at the time, but given the circumstances, you decided to make the most of it. And had a great time.

This kind of thing really works for me. Schedule change is upsetting, it's annoying, hiding behind T&C's is unsympathetic, but at the end of the day this is your holiday and you can make it brilliant.
#936760 by Snora
21 Jul 2017, 19:52
kevbro wrote:being offered and alternative date may be legal and proper, and pretty much a common occurrence, but that is not really my point ....
it is beyond any doubt that Virgin's actions have ruined our anniversary.
and yes, I have grown increasingly angry as our too early flight date approaches , and I can do without the Nottingham Nicks of this world.
and yes, an upgrade would pacify me somewhat!


I guess one point worth noting is that the Fall colours are best most years end of Sept into October. The rebooked dates Virgin offered would have been around the time of your original plans, and I am sure you had researched fall colours of past years to see if there is a pattern. Of course, each year can vary depending on temperatures and it is the cold snap that brings on the first colours. To give an idea of this see : https://smokymountains.com/fall-foliage-map/
it covers New England states for 2016.

you will love this area of the USA, picture perfect towns with white spired churches, great food, friendly people ! have a great holiday and celebrate every one of those 18,262+ days together - not just the one ! :-D
#936761 by MoJoJo
21 Jul 2017, 20:34
kevbro wrote: and I can do without the Nottingham Nicks of this world.
!


Wow! That's just rude and uncalled for. You posted here and just because you don't like the responses you've got doesn't entitle you to make personal attacks against those that have responded.

Schedule changes happen, deal with it.
Like others I've suffered them including one later this year flying a different day into a different airport
Last edited by MoJoJo on 21 Jul 2017, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
#936762 by Hev60
21 Jul 2017, 20:41
Kevbro, I too can sympathise and empathise with your situation. A couple of years back a scheduled timing change nearly wrecked a really important event for me - touring the Grand Canyon. Virgin Atlantic were business like in their reasoning/excuses & yes I was quoted all the 'terms & conditions of carriage' etc. In the end luckily I was able complete my journey and the experience. At the time I felt very upset and let down by Virgin Atlantic but with the support and comments of the v-flyer members on this forum, I was able to stay focussed.

To be honest, I really do not understand how a few hours extra added to your journey by flying into New York would have ruined your holiday. In new york you would have cleared immigration and that would have saved you time if you had flown directly into Boston. Secondly and more importantly, Tontybear's suggestion of flying down to London and then going directly from Heathrow surely wasnt that outrageous to consider? Did you ever check out that option? You probably would then have been able to keep your original October dates to coincide with your Anniversary :-(

You are a new 'poster' on this forum so perhaps you are not aware that people are very kind, polite and helpful and will try to offer you advice. Maybe its not what you what to hear. You are obviously very angry with Virgin Atlantic (although you have still booked with them!!) but its not very nice to start ranting and insulting folk who are trying to help. As you can see most of us have experienced some kind of travel disruption over the years but life just is just not that perfect is it?

Enjoy New england, the fall is truly beautiful.
#936764 by clarkeysntfc
21 Jul 2017, 21:54
I do sympathise with your prediament, but coming on here and making personal attacks on anyone who offers an answer you're unhappy with isn't the way.

Nottingham Nick is a long standing and very well respected member of this site, who if you look at his prior posts you will see is anything but a Virgin apologist.

Personally, my view is that a connection in JFK isn't the end of the world. However I'd have asked to be rebooked with a connection at Heathrow (MAN-LHR-BOS) on the original date of travel. Did you request this?
#936765 by kevbro
21 Jul 2017, 22:42
having read all the above, I think it's high time to end this posting ...
but I must point out that many posters have just piled in without knowing the facts, whilst other have been more helpful with their replies.

1. it's quite nice to hear that even though we will not be in New England on our actual anniversary (Oct 7th) that we may see better colours in September.

2. the October flight was vital to us, and only Virgin offered it when we did our planning
SlimpyJones wrote
Yes, Virgin have mucked you about, but in the grand scheme of things, all they have done is changed how you are getting to and from your anniversary trip.
incorrect! ... 'in the grand scheme of things' would you wish to be two weeks early for such an important day - one that all our hotels had offered us great welcomes for?
would getting a Christmas or birthday present 2 weeks early suit you?

3. others have said why not go to via Heathrow - I have made it quite plain that Virgin had cancelled ALL direct October flights, and that no other airline were any better

4. many have simply not took the time to read the post fully, nor check the facts on my webpage
eg: Hev60 wrote
I really do not understand how a few hours extra added to your journey by flying into New York would have ruined your holiday
I would suggest to Hev60 that he gets a grip of all the facts, and study the following from my webpage:
this so called flight change bore no resemblance to what we had contracted for and was totally unacceptable -it turned a journey time of 7.5 hours into one of 13 hours, including a 3hr stay-over at New York's JFK airport! ... this would get us to our first Hotel at an ungodly hour - and also add a further one night stay in New England
the return was the same! - so a 7 night holiday with total journey time of 15 hours would become an 8 day one of 24.75 hours!


5. Traveller2 wrote:
What gumshoe said about Netflights is true and I was thinking the very same thing. It is never a great idea to have a third party between yourself and an airline.
Netflights were not the problem - indeed using them saved us over £100, which did offset our re-booking losses

those who accuse me of anger and bad form had obviously not taken the actual facts into account,
and should note that I only struck back at one sarcastic and misinformed member - I never threw the first punches!
thanks to all who made constructive an informative comments - I shan't post again
#936766 by Hev60
21 Jul 2017, 23:05
kevbro wrote:having read all the above, I think it's high time to end this posting ...

I shan't post again


I am surprised this post was not closed down earlier by the Mods as this angry Gent has clearly started to break all the etiquette rules. He will not be missed with that kind of attitude.

ps The fall in September - I think not, thats like asking for snow in July :cool:
October 4th -11th still has availability from LHR to Boston !
#936767 by Bretty
22 Jul 2017, 00:42
I don't care if you post again, you're probably lurking to read other posts. I have read your webpage and your posts and I must say the way you write strikes a tone of a petulant child with a sense of entitlement having a tantrum rather than a reasoning, although angry, 72 year old adult. But then, I must admit I don't know all the facts, only those you've chosen to share.

Nonetheless it seems you're determined to have your anniversary ruined even with 7 months notice of a flight change!

Others have, rightly, pointed out that Virgin Atlantic owe you nothing other than rerouting, which you say wasn't acceptable, or cancellation. As has been pointed out, if you were charged a cancellation fee that was wrong.

Whilst there were no other direct flights out of Manchester for your preferred dates, there were other indirect flights including connecting via Dublin (Aer Lingus 10.5 hr total journey time), connecting via Heathrow (BA total 10 hr journey time), connecting in Amsterdam (KLM & Delta 10.5 hr total journey time) and all flights getting you into Boston at a reasonable time. BA, Delta and Virgin Atlantic do also have direct flights operating from Heathrow for your preferred dates. You have chosen to rebook with Virgin, even though there are alternatives with better flight times than what you were offered and still you say that Virgin has ruined your anniversary.

You mention what you have contracted to, but all contracts have T&Cs and schedule changes are part of those terms, and if you think the duration of the journey (7.5 hours versus 13) is part of the contract you're sadly mistaken. I know it's not what you want to hear, and as you yourself have said, you're not a seasoned international traveller so you may lack some experience that others on this forum have. We all have expectations of what we want, I think yours are unreasonable. And the expectation of an upgrade shows your sense of entitlement.

Your hotel cancellation fees should be covered by travel insurance, but as you've ignored this even though it's been pointed out more than once, I'll hazard a guess you don't have any. I apologise if I'm wrong.

I also think you've completely missed the point made about Netflights, and that is, as a third party travel agent all your dealings up until 24 hrs before your outbound flight will need to be with Netflights. So if, and I seriously hope this doesn't happen to you, your flight schedule changes again, Virgin Atlantic will not deal with you directly as you haven't booked directly with them.

I too speak from experience, not just of a schedule change but a route being cancelled altogether. I had to work with Virgin to get rerouted but the reroute meant flying into a different airport at my destination meaning rearranging my ground transport and my first hotel. But none of that was Virgin's responsibility.

After all that, I really do hope you and your wife have a fantastic trip to Boston to see the fall colours and that when you return you find some way to mark the occasion of your 50th anniversary on the actual date.
#936768 by tontybear
22 Jul 2017, 02:34
kevbro wrote:3. others have said why not go to via Heathrow - I have made it quite plain that Virgin had cancelled ALL direct October flights, and that no other airline were any better

4. many have simply not took the time to read the post fully, nor check the facts on my webpage

thanks to all who made constructive an informative comments - I shan't post again


VS have not cancelled the LHR-BOS flights. Yes the MAN flights have been cancelled. Flying via LHR was an OPTION you should have considered before just cancelling.

I did read your webpost. ALL my comments were based on that. Otherwise how would I have known about the connection times at JFK on the out and in bound flights which I referred to in my earlier post??

Ok don't post again but it won't change anything. VS won't give you any compensation or an upgrade.

Perhaps if you'd posted here before you decided to cancel and rebook (again why book on VS if you were so mad at them???) you would have gained lots of useful advice about
rebooking.

There is no need to phone VS immediatly they told you your flight had cancelled, I waited over 2 weeks when mine was cancelled so I could consider other options and when I did phone the VS agents were very helpful when I asked about changes that would work for me.
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