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#928198 by Lonemorf
02 Nov 2016, 21:18
stuart_f wrote:For those of us who are in the UK market we have a free choice of carriers. VS is not part of an alliance, has a very limited route network and the flying club is stacked against us in comparison to a US member. There's no guarantee of reward flight availability, no household accounts (except if you are gold in the new system), no real 2-4-1 (the current companion award is widely regarded as a joke) and the Clubhouse, which is a huge factor in my decisions of who to fly with when I spend my own money, only exists at LHR and LGW, most outstations have laughable lounge access, this includes MAN and GLA. To be fair to flying club, the Economy to PE upgrade vouchers are good but the extra APD is killing the value here.

In contrast, I can choose to collect with BA which is part of One World and offers benefits across a vast alliance. There are 2 CW and 4 WT/WT+ seats guaranteed for reward availability on every flight at T-355 days. BA offers a First class cabin which VS doesn't. Most people point and laugh and claim BA First is the "best business class product on the market" but it's now pretty much the same cost as VS Upper after the VS devaluation so who is looking silly now? In addition BA's CC offers a real 2-4-1 which makes BA a cheaper option than VS for pretty much every premium cabin option. VS may well be introducing tier point earning via partners in UK but without reforming Silver status it's meaningless (I base this on the expectation that Silver status is likely to be the most you can earn without actually flying). Silver doesn't help me on connecting tickets (no alliance), it doesn't offer me lounge access, it doesn't let me book the seat I want when I pay. The same status on BA would allow all of these things. Basically, VS silver is most meaningless status in the airline world.

I really enjoyed my VS journey. I loved my UC travels and the pinnacle was visiting Crawley Towers earlier this year for the customer experience day - PS: I've not seen any of our suggestions integrated into the app yet. That said, I think I'm done now. Other airlines are now a better fit for me, and I suspect, for many others here.

Even ignoring the status and frequent flyer accounts, I stuck with VS because I liked their service and the in flight bar was quirky. Sadly this has been killed by the removal of the extra cabin crew from Upper meaning the bar is now just an empty table and the service in Upper only works if you know what to ask for rather than you being able to relax and wait for it to be offered to you.

Oli, I don't expect you to reply point by point but why should UK members not look to greener pastures?


Seconded. I am a fairly recent VS regular - I only really started using Virgin heavily about 20 months ago. These changes can only make me feel like I am not important to Virgin anymore. I see no major compelling reason to stay loyal now.
#928200 by mitchja
02 Nov 2016, 22:04
OliByersVirginAtl wrote:Future Changes

You’ll notice that we didn’t change much about our tiers; they are still called Red, Silver, Gold and aside from improving our Silver and Gold earning bonuses the rest remains unchanged.



Sorry but I maybe missing something here, but how can reducing the current 100% bonus miles for AU members and the current 50% miles bonus for AG members being reduced to 60% for AU and 30% for AG be considered an improvement?
#928202 by evanspa1
02 Nov 2016, 22:11
mitchja wrote:
OliByersVirginAtl wrote:Future Changes

You’ll notice that we didn’t change much about our tiers; they are still called Red, Silver, Gold and aside from improving our Silver and Gold earning bonuses the rest remains unchanged.



Sorry but I maybe missing something here, but how can reducing the current 100% bonus miles for AU members and the current 50% miles bonus for AG members being reduced to 60% for AU and 30% for AG be considered an improvement?


Yes the bit you missed (and I did until I re-read what was posted) was the the Gold bonus now applies across base miles and cabin bonus - the previous 100% only applied to base.

So if you use the old earning calculator, round-trip to HKG in Z would earn 29908

Under the new scheme you'd earn 23860 * 1.6 = 38176 miles
#928203 by ttmooney
02 Nov 2016, 22:48
OliByersVirginAtl wrote:Thanks for all the responses and follow-up questions. I’ve tried to answer the main questions coming up below

...

Thanks for the questions, we really do appreciate it.

Oli


Oli --

You didn't talk about lifetime gold. As someone who has been flying Virgin for 17 years, with 9 years in gold it's something I'd like to hear about. Frankly, the changes look pretty terrible for anyone who isn't a banker flying at short notice.

And if you think FC, even now, competes with Emirates Skywards you're probably not correct. Combine this with things like US residents being able to get TPs with a credit card, and you can see why people are upset.

Please, don't resort back to your 'making things better' marketing line. It's clear that, although there's a mixed bag, a lot of loyal customers, myself included, will probably be worse off.
#928204 by mitchja
02 Nov 2016, 23:37
Thanks for clearing that up evenspa1, :)

I've also never understood why US VS credit card holders have always got a better deal (i.e. miles + tier points) compared to UK VS credit card holders who gets miles only?

Just a question about FC numbers...will the old numbers still be linked as they are now as I suspect there will be many people who have a old FC number linked to other external accounts say their MBNA credit card account for example?

I've had probably 6 or 7 different FC numbers now over the 16 years I've been a member. I really couldn't tell you which of those are currently set in my MBNA account!

I know this is possibly out of VS's control(?) but it would be helpful if MBNA actually listed your FC number somewhere in your online MBNA account.
#928207 by backdoc
03 Nov 2016, 04:19
Oli,

Two people asked you about Flying Co and how the changes will affect our accounts there, please elaborate with specifics.

Many of us have dumped many thousands of dollars choosing to fly Virgin Atlantic in order to keep Flying Club Gold and build Flying Co miles over the years. The statement that "we don't see this as an devaluation..." is ludicrous, since the rest of the planet does indeed see it this way. I didn't accumulate my miles to fly coach or PE, period. Now it will cost a third more miles for the same trip in UC from Los Angeles, THAT is a devaluation.



Steve
Last edited by backdoc on 03 Nov 2016, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
#928215 by jayden
03 Nov 2016, 09:10
mitchja wrote:I've also never understood why US VS credit card holders have always got a better deal (i.e. miles + tier points) compared to UK VS credit card holders who gets miles only?

Just a question about FC numbers...will the old numbers still be linked as they are now as I suspect there will be many people who have a old FC number linked to other external accounts say their MBNA credit card account for example?

I've had probably 6 or 7 different FC numbers now over the 16 years I've been a member. I really couldn't tell you which of those are currently set in my MBNA account!

I know this is possibly out of VS's control(?) but it would be helpful if MBNA actually listed your FC number somewhere in your online MBNA account.


I second that, as someone who has family in the US, a few years ago I convinced them to join FC as the bulk of they're flying is coming over here. In a short period combined with the credit cards out there they have a higher mileage earn on spend as the bonuses are more generous. But that aside, they achieved status quicker and in fact progressed through just flying DL and spending. If you compare that against what it would cost a UK resident the cards are stacked a bit unfairly.

The increased redemption rewards in UC compared with the decrease Oli has mentioned in other cabins seems more like VS are trying to keep space in UC for those paying full whack last minute.

I also agree with gumshoe's post yesterday, however one the contrary those who are flying on Z fares 3-4 times a year in UC spending say £8k of they're hard earned cash and have been loyal to virgin over the years should be rewarded not devalued.

It will be interesting to see these new upper teir level benefits introduced in the new year - maybe they will bring positive benefits!
#928223 by travelmad51
03 Nov 2016, 13:09
We are looking to go to SFO in UC next Year using miles!! Would it be best to book the outbound now, there are lots of availability from MAN and it would be cheaper in miles? and then wait until a return comes available? Can you change or cancel a reward flight?

Just completed our first UC flights trip reports to follow when I get a minute!!

Cath
#928225 by mdhayes
03 Nov 2016, 13:15
if the outbounds available I'd book it now, depending when you are going san fran is going to cost you 35k or 55k more after the changes come in, when will your return be released? yes you can cancel a reward flight for a £35 fee
#928234 by Silver Fox
03 Nov 2016, 18:57
OliByersVirginAtl wrote:Changes to Reward Seat prices

Our changes to reward seat prices are intended to create a more equal redemption value across each of the cabins. This gives you more flexibility in where to use your miles and ensures you get good value for them. So while some of our reward prices may have changed, mostly in Upper Class, a lot of the Economy and Premium Economy reward prices have come down in price. Overall, across all our routes, cabins and days of the year, including the launch of peak season rewards, 63% of our reward prices have fallen and 37% have increased. The average cost of a reward seat has come down from 67k miles to 63k miles.

I understand that if you’ve been saving for an Upper Class reward seat then these changes could mean that you’ll need to save up more miles. It’s not the case across all routes as we have reduced the price on 15% of our Upper Class rewards. Hopefully the greater value we’re offering in Economy and Premium Economy rewards will give you other valuable ways to use your miles.

These changes are balanced and more rewards are getting cheaper, so we don’t see this as a devaluation and therefore didn’t make any changes to boost members existing mile balances.

Oli


It's good that you are taking the time to post here. However, just lowering the miles and saying economy and PE is now cheaper, rejoice, is just not going to cut it with many people, especially here where you are dealing with an exceptionally well versed and loyal audience. In my case I don't spend 1000s of pounds to build up miles to fly economy or PE, I want to use it for UC which I suspect you are fully aware of. The UC increases appear to me to be a cynical manner in that you want to reduce the amount of FF miles outstanding by making UC cost more, and economy and PE cost less thereby attracting more people down the "back of the bus". And that's all it seems to me. You don't seem to regard loyalty as something important any longer in a meaningful manner, and as for trying to compete with other frequent flyer programs well you can do that in many other ways rather than reducing it to just above their levels. You could have stood apart, you could have been different, you could have carried on and not followed the herd and been "still red hot" but sadly I think that you have "become luke warm". I also wonder how much of this was driven by Delta because it seems very un-Virgin like.
#928235 by vscxfan
03 Nov 2016, 18:59
gumshoe wrote: The reality is VS can't survive if more and more of its Gold FC members are earning their status and the benefits it brings by spending as little as £1000 with another airline and potentially not even setting foot on one of its planes.


BA, however, seems to have survived Exec Club Gold members earning their status (ie 1500 TP) by spending as little as £600 on BA and £2,400 on AA: for example by flying 1 BA CE return LHR-ATH-LHR (160 TP) + 1 BA CE return LHR-BRU-LHR (80 TP) + 3 AA transcon First returns JFK-PHX-JFK, MIA-LAS-MIA and CLT-LAX-CLT (420 TP each).
#928236 by gumshoe
03 Nov 2016, 19:28
True.

But BA does at least require you to fly 4 legs on IAG metal. And it confirmed today that it's reducing by a third the TPs earned in F on the vast majority of AA domestic flights. So it too is actively seeking to make it harder to earn status by TP running.
#928238 by property1925
03 Nov 2016, 19:39
ttmooney wrote:
OliByersVirginAtl wrote:Thanks for all the responses and follow-up questions. I’ve tried to answer the main questions coming up below

...

Thanks for the questions, we really do appreciate it.

Oli


Oli --

You didn't talk about lifetime gold. As someone who has been flying Virgin for 17 years, with 9 years in gold it's something I'd like to hear about. Frankly, the changes look pretty terrible for anyone who isn't a banker flying at short notice.

And if you think FC, even now, competes with Emirates Skywards you're probably not correct. Combine this with things like US residents being able to get TPs with a credit card, and you can see why people are upset.

Please, don't resort back to your 'making things better' marketing line. It's clear that, although there's a mixed bag, a lot of loyal customers, myself included, will probably be worse off.



I have to second this also. Oli, I know you are not implying it, but VS frequent flyers are not slow on the uptake. Most of us know all the tips/tricks/tools about FC and so it;s not a guess that we will be worse off - and so better off elsewhere.

Could you also answer about TP with other non-Delta partners. The same? Changing? Going?

Thanks
#928244 by Hev60
03 Nov 2016, 23:18
OliByersVirginAtl wrote:
Changes to Reward Seat prices

I understand that if you’ve been saving for an Upper Class reward seat then these changes could mean that you’ll need to save up more miles. Oli


Really, you understand ... I don't think so.

Like many other people have said, I too collect my miles by spending on my credit card in order to book just one flight for us in UC just once a year.

For the past two years I managed to book upgradable M fare tickets needing just 50k return for our 2015 west coast and 2016 Orlando trips. However in February 2016 the miles required for upgrades suddenly increased significantly so I opted for reward tickets instead. Obviously these cost 100k return each but we're still better value than an upgrade fare. I even had to buy some miles in order to secure those elusive G's to the west coast from LHR.

If I understand correctly, from next year the reward UC fares which I have booked will cost 35k more or 50k + more during peak times.

I for one will never be able to afford those kind of UC rewards fares ever again after our 2017 trip. Oh but hang on, aren't I lucky coz now can travel in Economy or PE at reduced a mileage requirement.

Sadly I can categorically say my 'love affair' with VS will come to an abrupt end after March 2017 :-(
#928245 by gumshoe
03 Nov 2016, 23:55
But - and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh - why would VS care about retaining the custom of someone who flies once a year in UC using miles that largely weren't earned by spending any money with them, taking up a seat that someone who's spent tens of thousands of pounds with them wanted but couldn't have?

The only money they're making out of you is £300-odd in YQ surcharges plus whatever you spent on the remaining miles you needed. The whole rationale behind these changes is to better reward those who spend the most, which is surely the whole point of a loyalty programme.

Never forget companies that run loyalty programmes aren't doing it because they're philanthropic, however much they like to give the impression they are. They're designed purely to extract more money out of their customers.
#928246 by property1925
04 Nov 2016, 00:41
gumshoe wrote:
Never forget companies that run loyalty programmes aren't doing it because they're philanthropic, however much they like to give the impression they are. They're designed purely to extract more money out of their customers.



This is true, and a fair point. But as a number of people are noting, the changes are such that frequent flyers currently holding AU will now spend their money on other airlines. VS are behaving as if they have an integrated network with many partners and so lots of opportunities to earn TP and miles (like oneworld, star alliance). But they don't have it. So, they had to be more generous (and they were) because they did not have a network to support a less generous frequent flyer programme. So many of us would take the long way around to stay on VS metal because it was worth it. Now, it's not. It might be - if there is a plan to fold FC into Delta skymiles but until (if) that happens why would a frequent flyer stay with VS when other programmes are better. I, and perhaps others, need an answer before we take the plunge and leave.
#928247 by Hev60
04 Nov 2016, 00:55
gumshoe wrote:But - and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh - why would VS care about retaining the custom of someone who flies once a year in UC using miles that largely weren't earned by spending any money with them, taking up a seat that someone who's spent tens of thousands of pounds with them wanted but couldn't have?

The only money they're making out of you is £300-odd in YQ surcharges plus whatever you spent on the remaining miles you needed. The whole rationale behind these changes is to better reward those who spend the most, which is surely the whole point of a loyalty programme.

Never forget companies that run loyalty programmes aren't doing it because they're philanthropic, however much they like to give the impression they are. They're designed purely to extract more money out of their customers.


Yes I can clearly see the point you are making and no offence taken ;-) They don't care and why should they.
Also if someone genuinely has paid out "tens of thousands of pounds" out of their own pocket, then yes absolutely they are more entitled to my seat. 'Out of their own pocket' is the important word.

So I would like to sound 'harsh' too! Perhaps if VS and all other airlines should stop dishing out rewards, complementary or other perk type seats to those people who gain this so called 'privilege' by using their FC cards when travelling on business trips etc, then fares could be fairer for all. Miles & points should be only allocated to the person who pays for the fare themselves and not using company money. Perhaps the organisation should receive the privilege miles/points and allocate the 'reward' to the best employees :-P :-P

On the subject of fairness, let's face it, those poor families who get ripped off year after year having to fork out for ridiculously over inflated fares just coz its the 'school holidays' certainly assist the revenue budget each year.

VS are probably no different to other airlines but I was shocked when I watched that tv programme earlier this year and the man in the packaging room said he received numerous free UC fares per year and he is one of many many thousands. On the last UC flight I took to Boston, nearly half the entire UC cabin was taken up by a family & friends squad going to a wedding! At least VS got a few hundred pounds for my seat !!! :-)
#928248 by gumshoe
04 Nov 2016, 01:19
property1925 wrote:VS are behaving as if they have an integrated network with many partners and so lots of opportunities to earn TP and miles (like oneworld, star alliance). But they don't have it.


Not this side of the Atlantic, no. But they do in the US and with Atlanta now pulling the strings I think the strategy now is less about growing VS's traditional UK market and more about using the JV to try and attract high value American business travellers away from *A and OW.

But - and I'm obviously speculating - they've run the numbers and decided those Americans, who are accustomed to being upgraded by virtue of their status, are being deprived of valuable Gs by Brits who've earned their miles at Tesco rather than by spending £££ on flying. And I suspect they also believe too many Golds have earned their status by buying cheap ex-EU 'Z' fares.

I notice the VS home page is now trailing the imminent launch of their new website. When we finally see it next weekend I think it'll become clearer than ever that VS is now, to all intents and purposes, part of Delta.
#928250 by gumshoe
04 Nov 2016, 01:29
Hev60 wrote:Perhaps if VS and all other airlines should stop dishing out rewards, complementary or other perk type seats to those people who gain this so called 'privilege' by using their FC cards when travelling on business trips etc, then fares could be fairer for all. Miles & points should be only allocated to the person who pays for the fare themselves and not using company money.


That would be lovely! Trouble is, it's that company money that enables airlines to offer discounted fares to the rest of us. VS would go bust tomorrow if it could only sell O, K and Z fares and no-one paid £££ for Y, W and J tickets.

And if VS doesn't reward the business travellers with perks, they'll just go somewhere that does.
#928256 by oceanscape
04 Nov 2016, 08:31
stuart_f wrote:For those of us who are in the UK market we have a free choice of carriers. VS is not part of an alliance, has a very limited route network and the flying club is stacked against us in comparison to a US member. There's no guarantee of reward flight availability, no household accounts (except if you are gold in the new system), no real 2-4-1 (the current companion award is widely regarded as a joke) and the Clubhouse, which is a huge factor in my decisions of who to fly with when I spend my own money, only exists at LHR and LGW, most outstations have laughable lounge access, this includes MAN and GLA. To be fair to flying club, the Economy to PE upgrade vouchers are good but the extra APD is killing the value here.

In contrast, I can choose to collect with BA which is part of One World and offers benefits across a vast alliance. There are 2 CW and 4 WT/WT+ seats guaranteed for reward availability on every flight at T-355 days. BA offers a First class cabin which VS doesn't. Most people point and laugh and claim BA First is the "best business class product on the market" but it's now pretty much the same cost as VS Upper after the VS devaluation so who is looking silly now? In addition BA's CC offers a real 2-4-1 which makes BA a cheaper option than VS for pretty much every premium cabin option. VS may well be introducing tier point earning via partners in UK but without reforming Silver status it's meaningless (I base this on the expectation that Silver status is likely to be the most you can earn without actually flying). Silver doesn't help me on connecting tickets (no alliance), it doesn't offer me lounge access, it doesn't let me book the seat I want when I pay. The same status on BA would allow all of these things. Basically, VS silver is most meaningless status in the airline world.

I really enjoyed my VS journey. I loved my UC travels and the pinnacle was visiting Crawley Towers earlier this year for the customer experience day - PS: I've not seen any of our suggestions integrated into the app yet. That said, I think I'm done now. Other airlines are now a better fit for me, and I suspect, for many others here.

Even ignoring the status and frequent flyer accounts, I stuck with VS because I liked their service and the in flight bar was quirky. Sadly this has been killed by the removal of the extra cabin crew from Upper meaning the bar is now just an empty table and the service in Upper only works if you know what to ask for rather than you being able to relax and wait for it to be offered to you.

Oli, I don't expect you to reply point by point but why should UK members not look to greener pastures?

Agree with every single word of this; couldn't have put it better myself.

Have enjoyed travelling VS and being an Au member but over the past year the service in UC has been consistently bad and I completely agree with your final point about the "service in Upper only works if you know what to ask for rather than you being able to relax and wait for it to be offered to you" - could not be a better way to put it. Hate that nothing is offered any more and it's your job to flag down CC (who often treat it as an inconvenience to them).

We are moving to BA EC and all future flights (after our DXB trip in Jan) will be away from VS metal.
#928282 by AndyM4
04 Nov 2016, 12:36
Looks like GFL (or Lifetime Gold) is still all good!

26. Has the criteria for reaching Lifetime Gold changed?
No, the criteria for reaching Lifetime Gold hasn't changed. This remains at ten consecutive years in Gold and 7500 tier points, which is the same as the original requirement of 300 tier points multiplied by 25. Our systems will automatically calculate this and update your account accordingly.

I'll be interested to see what the further changes to Tiers are
"You’ll notice that we didn’t change much about our tiers; they are still called Red, Silver, Gold"
I can't help but wonder if they will align more with Delta / SkyTeam tiers. ie; Silver, Gold, Platinum & Diamond. I wonder where AU status will be matched to if this is the case.
#928284 by gumshoe
04 Nov 2016, 13:25
A fourth tier would make sense. Currently there's nothing really to inspire you to stay loyal to VS once you've hit 40 TP, which a frequent flyer can easily achieve in a month or two.

Incidentally for those thinking of defecting to BA, they've announced yet more bad news today - squeezing another two rows of seats into their already tight short-haul A320 & A321s, and making economy 10 across instead of 9 and reducing F & CW capacity on some of their 777s, thus reducing the chance to redeem those 2-4-1 vouchers.

The grass isn't always greener ....
#928287 by Silver Fox
04 Nov 2016, 14:18
Delta is driving this bus now, that much is clear. So, I would just look at what they do/are doing/are proposing to do, and that will tell much of the unfolding VS story. The last thing I wanted VS to become is Americanised.
#928289 by Professor Yaffle
04 Nov 2016, 14:39
A real pity that VS sent someone over here to spout corporate PR, without either a) understanding his audience, or b) returning to deal with the points and valid concerns that came out of his speech.

For me, the one totally unjustifiable is the increase in redemption charges to the West Coast. 155,000 miles is a quite obscene uplift - I feel if they put it up to 120k everyone would have shrugged and moved on. 155k is ridiculous - this is not a first class product by any stretch.

All in all really disppointing - my future loyalty to the brand is really under threat.
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