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#928131 by spacedog
01 Nov 2016, 20:45
Thanks for all this information, Oli! Both my OH and I are FC Au, and whilst I was rather deflated at the news of the rather huge increases to the mileage required for UC redemptions, I am somewhat heartened by the potential for new ways of earning Tier Points. I think this would be an excellent addition and would be more in keeping with what's available to US FC members. I look forward to hearing more :)
#928135 by serenawell
01 Nov 2016, 21:47
My head hurts and I'm still confused :blush:

Last year hubs & I flew to : Las Vegas, Chicago and Jamaica -- all Gs -- If I've read right this will now cost us more than the 600,000 miles it cost us last year. We don't fly peak times. I will get a sh** load more Ec flights for my 600,000 -- this does not appeal to me.

Miles plus Money fares will now earn TPs. Worth a look at getting our flights this way now ??

I like that they have hinted we can earn TPs through other avenues. We are big c/c spenders so hopefully will benefit from this.
#928136 by bristoldave
01 Nov 2016, 21:54
Oli,

Not sure if you're still answering questions here but this thread on FlyerTalk mentions that Virgin America are claiming that

beginning on November 13, 2016 Virgin Atlantic will no longer be a partner of Virgin America.


The date suggests that this is tied into the above changes - can you confirm anything your end?

Thanks

Dave
#928137 by pjh
01 Nov 2016, 22:01
serenawell wrote: I will get a sh** load more Ec flights for my 600,000 -- this does not appeal to me.


My thoughts exactly.

I'm struggling to see the value in this for us - particularly as we are constrained to flying "peak" times. I can see the business rationale, but at an emotional level it feels a little like "to the back, you oik". :)
#928138 by backdoc
01 Nov 2016, 22:04
Hi Oli,

My partner and I have been very faithful Flying Club Gold Members for the last 9 years, and I have over 360,000 Flying Club miles in my account. I understand the reticence about calling the new program a devaluation of my Flying Club Miles but in my case it certainly seems like it is. Don't you think it would be fair to increase a current member's miles by some factor to make up the drop in value of accrued miles? The info mentioned that DL Tier Points and miles will stay as they are but what about miles earned at Virgin properties? I usually get around 20K miles for our annual stay at Ulusaba in South Africa, will the miles awarded for our stay increase?

Also, how will the changes in Virgin Atlantic's Flying Club work with Flying Co. now?



Thanks,

Steve
#928144 by AJC
01 Nov 2016, 23:37
Ok my head feels like it has been put in a meat grinder!

I've never understood all this anyway and now I'm even more confused than before :mrgreen:

I've saved up 100k for a reward UC flight to MCO next year. The plan was to get one reward alongside one paid flight. Was going to book on the 29th Nov.

Could some kindly soul please tell me how I'm best doing this now? I really don't understand any of it! ;-( ;-(
#928145 by ScoobySu
01 Nov 2016, 23:55
AJC wrote:Was going to book on the 29th Nov.


From Oli Byers post earlier

OliByersVirginAtl wrote:All Reward Pricing will apply to bookings on and after 16 January


;-)
#928146 by AJC
02 Nov 2016, 00:13
Thanks Scooby! So should I wait? Would I be better off as presumably my son would be able to get his own account then under the new rules?
#928147 by narikin
02 Nov 2016, 00:38
gumshoe wrote:I fear, however, we can expect "enhancements" to TP earning on Delta. Earning 3 (or now 75) TP for a sub-£100 domestic short hop in F does seem a little too good to be true.


why on earth are you drawing attention to this?!
keep quiet about the modest deals we have found. good grief!
#928148 by narikin
02 Nov 2016, 00:52
spacedog wrote: I think this would be an excellent addition and would be more in keeping with what's available to US FC members.


A lot of folks have pointed out the 'unfair' fact that US based VS flyers do better in terms of TP earning, CC miles, sign up bonuses, etc, and express some hope that VS will level the field to those in the UK.

Whilst I see Oli's clear inference that some extra TP earning option will now be available outside of bums-on-seats, the plain facts are that a UK airline needs to compete hard with US carriers and their entrenched flyers. There are few likely to change metal, and they need a tempting deal to switch out of their familiar US airline, and their established status there. Hence the better deal for them. That and there's fewer US based VS FC members, compared to UK, so it's not a pricey 'give away' to VS. Doing the same deal for UK flyers would flood the clubhouse and reward program, so like all airlines (this is not only a VS issue by any means) they tend to keep a tighter leash at home, and be a little more generous in 'away' markets.

TL/DR - it's unlikely to change much.
#928149 by property1925
02 Nov 2016, 00:54
Following on re earning TP on partners.

There is a story doing the rounds at VS itself - and only just that, a story - that while it will be possible to earn TP in non-flying ways, the only airline partner for TP will be Delta.

I hope this is not true - at least half my TP each year are on Singapore. But - with a heavy heart - I've just joined BA Executive Club in case and will fly with them to the Caribbean instead of VS to get started.
#928150 by stuart_f
02 Nov 2016, 01:45
For those of us who are in the UK market we have a free choice of carriers. VS is not part of an alliance, has a very limited route network and the flying club is stacked against us in comparison to a US member. There's no guarantee of reward flight availability, no household accounts (except if you are gold in the new system), no real 2-4-1 (the current companion award is widely regarded as a joke) and the Clubhouse, which is a huge factor in my decisions of who to fly with when I spend my own money, only exists at LHR and LGW, most outstations have laughable lounge access, this includes MAN and GLA. To be fair to flying club, the Economy to PE upgrade vouchers are good but the extra APD is killing the value here.

In contrast, I can choose to collect with BA which is part of One World and offers benefits across a vast alliance. There are 2 CW and 4 WT/WT+ seats guaranteed for reward availability on every flight at T-355 days. BA offers a First class cabin which VS doesn't. Most people point and laugh and claim BA First is the "best business class product on the market" but it's now pretty much the same cost as VS Upper after the VS devaluation so who is looking silly now? In addition BA's CC offers a real 2-4-1 which makes BA a cheaper option than VS for pretty much every premium cabin option. VS may well be introducing tier point earning via partners in UK but without reforming Silver status it's meaningless (I base this on the expectation that Silver status is likely to be the most you can earn without actually flying). Silver doesn't help me on connecting tickets (no alliance), it doesn't offer me lounge access, it doesn't let me book the seat I want when I pay. The same status on BA would allow all of these things. Basically, VS silver is most meaningless status in the airline world.

I really enjoyed my VS journey. I loved my UC travels and the pinnacle was visiting Crawley Towers earlier this year for the customer experience day - PS: I've not seen any of our suggestions integrated into the app yet. That said, I think I'm done now. Other airlines are now a better fit for me, and I suspect, for many others here.

Even ignoring the status and frequent flyer accounts, I stuck with VS because I liked their service and the in flight bar was quirky. Sadly this has been killed by the removal of the extra cabin crew from Upper meaning the bar is now just an empty table and the service in Upper only works if you know what to ask for rather than you being able to relax and wait for it to be offered to you.

Oli, I don't expect you to reply point by point but why should UK members not look to greener pastures?
Last edited by stuart_f on 02 Nov 2016, 01:47, edited 1 time in total.
#928151 by ScoobySu
02 Nov 2016, 01:46
AJC wrote:Thanks Scooby! So should I wait? Would I be better off as presumably my son would be able to get his own account then under the new rules?


Hi AJC. I'm sorry but I don't know whether you should hold off :-(

I read your post as if you were saying flights weren't released until 29 Nov (from the date in your original post). If however you have the miles and there are G's available for your dates now I'd personally book them ASAP as I understand from fellow V-Flyer reports that finding G's on the MCO route can be difficult.

If however you're in a similar position as me (I'm waiting for hubby's Amex miles to drop) then it's a waiting game and we could lose out ;-( Not a real problem for me though as I was looking to upgrade P's to G's so at least I'm already booked!

Whether or not it's better to buy your cash fare now or later I really can't comment as I'm a leisure traveller and so TP's are not my driver for flying VS.

I think - but could be wrong - that you can add a FC number at any point so waiting for for a number for your son shouldn't be a problem - if I've got the right understanding!
#928152 by bristoldave
02 Nov 2016, 03:18
narikin wrote:
gumshoe wrote:I fear, however, we can expect "enhancements" to TP earning on Delta. Earning 3 (or now 75) TP for a sub-£100 domestic short hop in F does seem a little too good to be true.


why on earth are you drawing attention to this?!
keep quiet about the modest deals we have found. good grief!


I can only presume they're a UK-based flyer, envious of a deal they can't take advantage of, and so they figure if they can't have it, nobody should. What a great attitude.
#928156 by Eggtastico
02 Nov 2016, 08:03
stuart_f wrote:Oli, I don't expect you to reply point by point but why should UK members not look to greener pastures?


In the UK it does not pay to be brand loyalty, as they show no loyalty to you.
Why is it new customers are the one who gets the better deals from Sky, BT, Virgin, etc.?
#928158 by wheels
02 Nov 2016, 08:49
So my profile is 7 to 10 return Z's a year, then return miles redemption to MCO / MIA in July/ Aug in G x4 for the family holiday. So based on that the difference will be my rewards flight int he peak for that route will be 15% more expensive?
#928159 by Smid
02 Nov 2016, 10:18
Sealink wrote:
Smid wrote:When do the mileage costs change? Ie: If I book a reward flight today, will I get it at the old rate or the new rate.

In a way, the 35K more it will cost peak for me, will be part of the 100 odd K i'd previously left to expire... Not flying VS much anymore, and all the points are going BA for the real 2 for 1.

Now if they are going to match BA like they think they are, then make theirs a real 2 for 1 voucher. Not this fake one like they currently have.


If you book today you will pay today's rates. The new scheme comes in 13th November.


Headforpoints seems to think that 16th of January is when the redemption rise kicks in.
#928161 by mitchja
02 Nov 2016, 12:05
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but apparently the partnership with Virgin America also ends on Nov 13th.
#928163 by HokeyPokey
02 Nov 2016, 13:07
Smid wrote:
Sealink wrote:
Smid wrote:When do the mileage costs change? Ie: If I book a reward flight today, will I get it at the old rate or the new rate..




Headforpoints seems to think that 16th of January is when the redemption rise kicks in.


From the terms and conditions at bottom of the changes site: "Standard and peak season reward flights are available from 16 January 2017. The existing year round reward flights are still available until 15 January 2017"

So I am understanding that means that between now and 13 Nov all redemptions price at old rates. Then from 13 Nov only at old rates for flights upto 15th Jan 2017 and flights on dates thereafter price as per peak/onpeak calendar? That's how I understand it - but being able to book at old rates until January would make sense and would be a similar "period of notice" to that BA gave in 2015

Seems to be a bit of clumsy (misinterpretable anyway) language from FC such as this in the download:
"The below reward flights are bookable from 16 January 2017.
Our year round reward flights can still be booked until 15 January 2017."
Which could be interpreted as being the date of booking that counts even if the flight is on or after 16th Jan but I can see that might not be what they mean... Would hate for anyone not to book in the next 10 days when they needed to!

Anyone any ideas/facts? Going back to reread the post from Oli the Flying Club spokesperson...
#928165 by property1925
02 Nov 2016, 13:30
stuart_f wrote:That said, I think I'm done now. Other airlines are now a better fit for me, and I suspect, for many others here.

Even ignoring the status and frequent flyer accounts, I stuck with VS because I liked their service and the in flight bar was quirky. Sadly this has been killed by the removal of the extra cabin crew from Upper meaning the bar is now just an empty table and the service in Upper only works if you know what to ask for rather than you being able to relax and wait for it to be offered to you.


I'm AU but I think most of the above applies to me as well. It'll be a sad day if I switch to Oneworld and BA, but to illustrate the difference, I'll be Silver on BA with just a couple of flights and it gives me pretty much what VS AU does, with a bigger partner spread.

Now, if VS are planning to folding FC into Delta skymiles; or they are at least keeping existing partners (two lost in last 15 months), then it would make a difference. But during the uncertainty, I suspect many VS people will just switch and be gone for good. VS really need to go public on the details.

(I edited this because I thought I kept a copy of the original blurb - and i have'nt. Don't want to be unfair to VS)
Last edited by property1925 on 02 Nov 2016, 14:09, edited 1 time in total.
#928167 by HokeyPokey
02 Nov 2016, 13:33
So quoting Oli's post: "Finally to confirm the dates of the announced changes: All Earning (Tier Points and Miles) and Miles Plus Money pricing will apply to bookings made on and after 13th November. All Reward Pricing will apply to bookings on and after the 16th January."

That's a lot clearer that old rates apply when making a reward booking up until 15th Jan for all flights that are available to book (ie "bookable") at that time regardless of whether they are flown before or on/after 16th Jan.

Well the other alternative interpretation would have been pretty mean even if other airlines have done a lot worse before.
#928168 by gumshoe
02 Nov 2016, 13:43
bristoldave wrote:
narikin wrote:
gumshoe wrote:I fear, however, we can expect "enhancements" to TP earning on Delta. Earning 3 (or now 75) TP for a sub-£100 domestic short hop in F does seem a little too good to be true.


why on earth are you drawing attention to this?!
keep quiet about the modest deals we have found. good grief!


I can only presume they're a UK-based flyer, envious of a deal they can't take advantage of, and so they figure if they can't have it, nobody should. What a great attitude.


Eh? Please don't presume to lecture me about my "attitude".

I certainly can, and do, take advantage of VS's generous TP earning levels on DL and no-one would be happier than me if they stay as they are.

But I'm a realist and if you take the time to read Oli Byers' post, by my interpretation he suggests that VS are well aware that the current levels are overly generous and hints that changes are on the way.

I hardly think it took my post for VS to suddenly cotton on! As Oli says, the whole rationale behind the x25 uplift in TPs is to allow more flexibility.

You just have to look at the BA/AA model to guess roughly where it's going to go.

With VS/DL, a US domestic flight will earn 25 TPs in economy or 75 in F/Delta One, regardless of distance or fare paid. So a 6 hour, 2,500 mile JFK-LAX transcontinental that can easily cost $350 in economy will only earn 25 TPs whereas a 30 minute, 125 mile hop from LAX to SAN that can cost as little as $100 in F will earn 75 TPs. That seems crazy.

With BA/AA, a short haul US domestic will currently earn between 5 and 20 TPs in economy (depending on fare bucket) or 60 in F. A transcontinental will earn between 20 and 70 TPs in economy, 140 in Business or 210 in F. Which seems more logical as it's more rewarding to those who book the pricier fares and fly further.

The new VS TP structure will allow for far more flexibility and I'd expect something more akin to the BA/AA model to be introduced in due course.
#928176 by bristoldave
02 Nov 2016, 14:51
gumshoe wrote:Eh? Please don't presume to lecture me about my "attitude".

I certainly can, and do, take advantage of VS's generous TP earning levels on DL and no-one would be happier than me if they stay as they are.

But I'm a realist and if you take the time to read Oli Byers' post, by my interpretation he suggests that VS are well aware that the current levels are overly generous and hints that changes are on the way.

I hardly think it took my post for VS to suddenly cotton on!


I'm sure it didn't, but there's a big difference between quietly acknowledging that VS are more than likely aware that some are using the current system to their advantage, and outright spelling it out in a thread that VS's own SVP of Revenue Management has commented on and is presumably continuing to read.

Think, McFly, think!
#928185 by gumshoe
02 Nov 2016, 16:21
If the SVP of Revenue Management had to rely on a public forum to learn the easiest way to earn status with his airline, he should be fired instantly. It's hardly a secret. It's been openly discussed on V-Flyer for years.

These changes will have been planned months if not years ago, but it's taken until the migration to DL's far more powerful and sophisticated booking system to start implementing them.

The reality is VS can't survive if more and more of its Gold FC members are earning their status and the benefits it brings by spending as little as £1000 with another airline and potentially not even setting foot on one of its planes.
#928189 by OliByersVirginAtl
02 Nov 2016, 18:01
Thanks for all the responses and follow-up questions. I’ve tried to answer the main questions coming up below

Changes to Reward Seat prices

Our changes to reward seat prices are intended to create a more equal redemption value across each of the cabins. This gives you more flexibility in where to use your miles and ensures you get good value for them. So while some of our reward prices may have changed, mostly in Upper Class, a lot of the Economy and Premium Economy reward prices have come down in price. Overall, across all our routes, cabins and days of the year, including the launch of peak season rewards, 63% of our reward prices have fallen and 37% have increased. The average cost of a reward seat has come down from 67k miles to 63k miles.

I understand that if you’ve been saving for an Upper Class reward seat then these changes could mean that you’ll need to save up more miles. It’s not the case across all routes as we have reduced the price on 15% of our Upper Class rewards. Hopefully the greater value we’re offering in Economy and Premium Economy rewards will give you other valuable ways to use your miles.

These changes are balanced and more rewards are getting cheaper, so we don’t see this as a devaluation and therefore didn’t make any changes to boost members existing mile balances.

Why Flying Club

It was important to us in making these changes that Flying Club remained ahead of other loyalty programmes in the value offered to all of our members. We are a long haul airline and so a loyalty programme has to make up for the fact that we don’t offer the same European network as some of our competitors. We deliberately haven’t launched any tools or tables to compare us to other competing loyalty programmes (we have definitely done our homework here but feel that independent websites which compare loyalty programmes are the right place to find this information) but I can confidently say that if you’re a long haul flyer, Flying Club offers more value for each mile earned and quicker ways to achieve status that other competing programmes. When we fly to where you want to go, Flying Club offers great reward value and I hope will help you choose to fly Virgin Atlantic.

Future Changes

In our first email communication on these changes we mentioned that this was the start of an exciting journey for Flying Club and yesterday I mentioned about tier points and the changes there being more about enabling future changes. You’ll notice that we didn’t change much about our tiers; they are still called Red, Silver, Gold and aside from improving our Silver and Gold earning bonuses the rest remains unchanged. I’ve seen a few posts commenting on our exciting journey of change and I wanted to add that we do have some more exciting changes coming to our tiers as well as some more reward products we’ll be launching in 2017. I can’t confirm what these are or the dates yet as we’re still working on the plan but we are really excited about the future for Flying Club. I expect we’ll be talking more in the New Year and then throughout 2017 about these changes.

Thanks for the questions, we really do appreciate it.

Oli
Virgin Atlantic

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