Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 28 Nov 2017, 07:42Oh dear, glad there were no injuries. Could not of happened at a worse time for VS with some of the 787's being grounded as well.
-Steve
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Posted: 28 Nov 2017, 07:42Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 28 Nov 2017, 07:59Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 28 Nov 2017, 20:43The damage to the wing of the VS plane looks quite significant, so I guess that's gonna be out of use for a few days at least?
GBR returned from China this morning from her refit so presumably, another one might not head down quite so fast to pick up the slack?
GBR returned from China this morning from her refit so presumably, another one might not head down quite so fast to pick up the slack?
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 28 Nov 2017, 20:54ColOrd wrote:
GBR returned from China this morning from her refit so presumably, another one might not head down quite so fast to pick up the slack?
As mentioned in the A333 refit thread, KSS is already on her way to XMN today. Shouldn't take as long though as she has already had her D-check earlier this year so it's just a case of cabin refitting.
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 29 Nov 2017, 20:38ATC voice recording of the incident. The collision is at 4:20.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srdl7TWxsxA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srdl7TWxsxA
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 29 Nov 2017, 23:11Very interesting ATC clip, thanks for posting.
So who’s to blame with this then? After listening to the recording it seems a bit of a grey area to me.
I’d say it really should lie with JFK ATC for telling the EgyptAir to pass the VS without knowing exactly how far over the VS had parked up.
On the other hand, the pilot of the Egyptair should have insisted on someone giving him visual confirmation that his wing was clear before proceeding.
It’ll be interesting to read the report on this.
So who’s to blame with this then? After listening to the recording it seems a bit of a grey area to me.
I’d say it really should lie with JFK ATC for telling the EgyptAir to pass the VS without knowing exactly how far over the VS had parked up.
On the other hand, the pilot of the Egyptair should have insisted on someone giving him visual confirmation that his wing was clear before proceeding.
It’ll be interesting to read the report on this.
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 30 Nov 2017, 22:45The report won't seek to apportion blame. Only the causal factor and contributory factors.
For interest, an unclassified image of the location can be found here: https://orthos.dhses.ny.gov/?Extent=-82 ... ap=imagery
The causal factor is (IMHO) quite clear and very boring: The incident was caused when the Egyptair aircraft taxied forward into the stationary VS aircraft (Remember it's not about blame, it's about what happened to cause the incident)
The contributory factors will be far more interesting:
The layout of the run-up pad has a dotted line parallel to and approx 170ft away from the taxiway centreline. The a330 has a 200 ft wingspan and b777 has a 212 ft wingspan. If both aircraft had their nose wheels on the relevant lines then the a330's wingtip would be 100ft towards the taxiway, similarly the b777's wingtip would be 106ft towards the run-up pad. That's a combined total of 206ft of wing to fit in 170ft of space - it's not going to work.
The ground controller issued the instruction, "Move to the right, all the way to the right as far as you can on the run-up pad" from this I conclude that the ground controller was aware of the potential for a problem and wanted the VS as far away from the taxiway as possible.
If a line had been painted 40 ft from the far edge of the kilo-pad it would be around 250 ft from the kilo centreline so a330 with 200 ft wingspan and b777 with 212 ft wingspan should have been able to pass each other with 40 ft to spare if positioned optimally.
I therefore believe that:
1. The markings on the run-up pad at kilo were a contributory factor in the incident.
2. VS's positioning on the kilo pad was a contributory factor (it was a few feet away from the painted line and nowhere near "as far as you can" to the right)
3. The lack of direct visual contact or CCTV to show the relative aircraft positions meant there was no positive confirmation of clearance before the controller issued taxi clearance to Egyptair was a contributory factor.
I also think that the controller's proposed solution was suboptimal.
The VS aircraft could have been instructed to taxi forward and hold at K1 (the hold nearest the end of the runway) allowing the Egyptair to enter the runway at K2 and avoiding the need to overtake the VS aircraft on the taxiway at all. (see linked sat image above)
4. The proposed taxi plan was therefore a contributory factor.
*The above is clearly my opinion based on information in the public domain and not intended to pre-empt any investigation.
For interest, an unclassified image of the location can be found here: https://orthos.dhses.ny.gov/?Extent=-82 ... ap=imagery
The causal factor is (IMHO) quite clear and very boring: The incident was caused when the Egyptair aircraft taxied forward into the stationary VS aircraft (Remember it's not about blame, it's about what happened to cause the incident)
The contributory factors will be far more interesting:
The layout of the run-up pad has a dotted line parallel to and approx 170ft away from the taxiway centreline. The a330 has a 200 ft wingspan and b777 has a 212 ft wingspan. If both aircraft had their nose wheels on the relevant lines then the a330's wingtip would be 100ft towards the taxiway, similarly the b777's wingtip would be 106ft towards the run-up pad. That's a combined total of 206ft of wing to fit in 170ft of space - it's not going to work.
The ground controller issued the instruction, "Move to the right, all the way to the right as far as you can on the run-up pad" from this I conclude that the ground controller was aware of the potential for a problem and wanted the VS as far away from the taxiway as possible.
If a line had been painted 40 ft from the far edge of the kilo-pad it would be around 250 ft from the kilo centreline so a330 with 200 ft wingspan and b777 with 212 ft wingspan should have been able to pass each other with 40 ft to spare if positioned optimally.
I therefore believe that:
1. The markings on the run-up pad at kilo were a contributory factor in the incident.
2. VS's positioning on the kilo pad was a contributory factor (it was a few feet away from the painted line and nowhere near "as far as you can" to the right)
3. The lack of direct visual contact or CCTV to show the relative aircraft positions meant there was no positive confirmation of clearance before the controller issued taxi clearance to Egyptair was a contributory factor.
I also think that the controller's proposed solution was suboptimal.
The VS aircraft could have been instructed to taxi forward and hold at K1 (the hold nearest the end of the runway) allowing the Egyptair to enter the runway at K2 and avoiding the need to overtake the VS aircraft on the taxiway at all. (see linked sat image above)
4. The proposed taxi plan was therefore a contributory factor.
*The above is clearly my opinion based on information in the public domain and not intended to pre-empt any investigation.
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 01 Dec 2017, 17:59Looks like RAY has been repaired as she is on her way back now from JFK to LHR as a positioning flight.
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 01 Dec 2017, 21:41Great news! The winglet on an A330 isn't structural nor is it that aerodynamically important. Afriqiyah even flew their A330 missing a winglet for a few months back in 2010!
That said, a 3 day fix is still impressive and I tip my hat to those that made it possible.
That said, a 3 day fix is still impressive and I tip my hat to those that made it possible.
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 02 Dec 2017, 02:38G-VRAY was seen flying back empty to the UK earlier today!
Re: Oops wing clip at JFK!
Posted: 02 Dec 2017, 13:35She's already back in service on her way to IAD op'ing today's VS21.