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#940812 by notoverthehill
15 Jan 2018, 14:41
Hi All

Apologies for the long winded post. I'm hoping someone can clarify what should happen in my situation...

I have a reward booking for 2 pax LGW-BGI in June. The outbound leg is in UC and the return (was!) in PE. Looks like both flights are now going to be on the ex Air Berlin A330-200. Outbound is fine, but return has been downgraded to Economy as there is now no PE cabin.

I was emailed back in December by Virgin and told that in accordance with EU261/2004 I'd get a refund of 75% of the cost of the downgraded flight. The cost of the return leg was 35000miles plus £229.40.

I have received a refund of 15000 miles and no cash. When I queried it by phone I was told it's correct, since that's the difference in mileage cost between PE and Economy, and no cash was due since the taxes etc are the same across the two ticket types for the return leg (wrong in my opinion - I believe PE has a higher carrier surcharge). I was told if I had an issue with it I should email the generic customer relations email address.

I did email, explaining that I believed I should be getting 75% of what I paid back. I also grumbled at not being able to utilise the UC ticket as well as I'd hoped since we'd have a lower luggage allowance on our return flight, etc etc.

I got a response telling me that 'When it comes to the mileage ticket it works slightly differently as you are only paying taxes not a ticket price as this is covered by the miles taken' ... 'we have given you back the difference between the two which is 7,500 each. So basically, you paid for an economy ticket' and 'In regards to the taxes. You will receive the tax difference between Premium and Economy'.

I believe that as a minimum, I should be getting 26250 miles back plus the difference between taxes/charges etc in cash.

What's everyone else's opinion on this? Am I being daft/unreasonable? Are Virgin trying it on? Does anyone have experience of this situation?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
#940819 by stuart_f
15 Jan 2018, 18:30
I suspect it depends on how you view what has happened. Your view is that this is a downgrade and you are right that 75% would be due in this case.

Virgin probably view this as a cancellation - the planned aircraft is no longer available and an alternative service has replaced it (is it the same flight number and timings that you booked?). With more than 14 days notice no EC261 compensation is due for a cancellation and rebooking and they have rebooked you on a 'suitable' alternative service and refunded the fare difference.

I'd be tempted to go back to Virgin and explicitly ask for EC261 downgrade compensation and if they use the cancellation argument point out that article 5, 1 (a) brings article 8 into play so you should be offered "re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity" as per Article 8b. This could be on an alternative carrier in a PE product. It would be worth having a list of options ready at this point, for instance, are there seats on BA in WT+ that day?
#940820 by chrisfinch_2000
15 Jan 2018, 18:41
Unfortunately for you, I think virgin are correct. According to the Civil Aviation Authority, you only get a refund of the return journey leg, not the whole ticket in a downgrade situation : https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Resolv ... owngraded/

The return taxes for premium are £41.50 more than economy so you should definitely get that back!

Good luck!
#940823 by tontybear
15 Jan 2018, 19:28
There are two elements here

1. The miles - You are entitled to reimbursement of 75% of the miles back of the sector that was downgraded and not the difference in miles between PE and Y. EU261 is clear on that. As are VS as that appears to be what they said in the first email they sent to you. This should be easy to identify and calculate.

2. The cash - It is important to separate out the 'taxes' elements - government taxes (such as APD, departure taxes, transportation taxes), airport fees (passenger service fees, immigration and customs fees etc) and airline surcharges.

Recent court cases have ruled that there is no reimbursement of the first 2 of those as they are not under the control of the airline. There is an exception in that if there is an actual difference due to cabin class e.g. If you were downgraded from UC or PE to economy on the ex UK leg then you would also receive the whole difference between the 2 levels of APD as the tax rates are different.

Unfortunately the ruling was less clear about airline surcharges and both VS and you have valid arguments as to why they think you shouldn't and you think you should get 75% of the sector cost of those.

What I would do is write to VS and clearly state your expectations in receiving the correct % of miles as reimbursement for the downgrade. You should also make your case on the surcharges element.

You will have to be very specific here and likely have to do some dummy bookings to identify the individual elements of the fare breakdown so you can ask for the right amount.

Once VS reply to that then please come back here and we can then advise on taking VS to the arbitration procedure and possibly to Money Claim on Line.
#940842 by notoverthehill
16 Jan 2018, 11:20
Thanks for the replies all.

It's definitely an EU261 situation as opposed to downgrade - Virgin stated this in their original (automated) email. The flight number and timing has not changed. I can see I have been allocated extra legroom seats in Economy which I suppose is one good point.

It's also pretty straightforward to work out the cost of the return leg (this is for 2 tickets):
35000 miles
183.00 Carrier Surcharge
41.60 BGI Passenger Service Charge
4.80 BGI Security Fee

The carrier surcharge on an Economy ticket is £50 per person , so as chris says it's £41.50 per ticket less in Economy.

I would be happy if VS refunded the correct miles (75% of 35000) and the difference in the surcharge, but will make a case for 75% of the surcharge too, as it's a cost imposed by VS as opposed to a local tax...I'll await their response to my email (this one is taking a bit longer, hopefully because someone is thinking about it a little more..).

I'll let you know their response!
#940859 by djpetewilkes
16 Jan 2018, 20:51
Hi Notoverthehill,

I'm watching this with some interest, as something similar has happened to me.

I had 7 return reward flights from LGW-BGI in PE booked for 245,000 miles + £2639.70. We have now been downgraded to E, with a refund of 105,000 miles, and £702.

This isn't anywhere near 75%.

Looking forward to any response you receive.
#940871 by notoverthehill
17 Jan 2018, 10:20
Hi All

response from VS:
---------------------------------
Thank you for your further email.

I was sorry to read of your disappointment with the mileage amount reimbursed to you.

As we have unfortunately had to downgrade you and xxxxxx to our Economy cabin for your flight from Barbados to London Gatwick, you are entitled to a 75% refund of the fare of that particular flight. As you chose to purchase the two flights using Flying Club miles, no fare has been paid. However, as you will be unable to travel in the Premium Economy cabin, we have refunded you the difference in miles from Premium Economy and Economy.

I appreciate that you feel you should be reimbursed further Flying Club miles and I’d like to apologise Mr xxxxxx if the wording of the email you have received has caused any frustration. As I’m sure you can appreciate, we do have to remain fair and consistent with all customers affected by this aircraft change, however, I’d like to assure you that we do value all feedback from our loyal customers and that it has been fed back internally.

---------------------------------

No mention of any cash refund, so I'm still paying a PE carrier surcharge on an E flight. >-(

It's interesting to hear what you've been refunded djpetewilkes. Their email says that they want to be fare and consistent with all customers, yet you've had a cash refund and I haven't! Presumably that's because your refund is based purely on your outbound leg (my outbound is not affected), but I can't see how they could arrive at £702 for 7 passengers. The difference between PE and E (LGW-BGI leg) is £75 APD and 41.50 carrier surcharge. By my reckoning you should be getting £815.50 (outbound leg) + £290.50 (rtn leg) back, even if they only refund the difference between PE and E.

Interesting they're using the word 'fare' now rather than price or cost. The e-ticket obviously says "fare = 0" and they're avoiding using words that might be interpreted as including any miles, surcharges or taxes.

I'm now very grumpy! Time for some tea...

I'd love to hear any suggestions for what to do next.

Thanks.
#940893 by Bretty
17 Jan 2018, 20:38
Hi notoverthehill, I think now you need to gather more information together and respond, and point out that Article 3.3 of EU261/2004 specifically states that tickets obtained via a frequent flyer programme are covered. Putting it bluntly it has sod all to do with fare. For the downgrade you are entitled to 75% of your FC miles for that leg being refunded. VS would obviously like it to be just the difference between the miles for the cabins, but the regulations are clear that FF programmes are covered as the points have a value. You are also entitled to the difference in APD of it applies and the difference in carrier surcharges. Don’t be fobbed here, put together a succinct email listing the facts and figures and give them 7 or 14 days to respond before escalating it via money claim online etc.

Here’s a link to the 261/2004 document in case you don’t have one
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html? ... format=PDF

Best of luck
#940897 by ScoobySu
17 Jan 2018, 21:38
Hi notoverthehill

I'm in a similar situation - upgraded to PE using the Amex voucher, downgraded to EC and have only received the difference in APD back - no miles and no sign of the Amex voucher either which still has four months left to book with.

TBH we're seriously considering cancelling the flights for the full refund so would be very interested to hear how you and djpetewilkes get on.

ScoobySu
#940926 by notoverthehill
18 Jan 2018, 13:27
Thanks again all, and thanks for the suggestions Bretty.

I've written a brief email in response stating exactly what I think I'm owed. I quoted the relevant part of article 3.3 of EU261/2004, and explained the reason for a surcharge refund.

I asked for a detailed explanation of why they believe I am incorrect and for their final response to come from someone with clout.

I'm reluctant to make it a 'letter before action' at this point - I don't want the booking cancelled, which they can presumably decide to do if they feel like it(?). Presumably I could wait until after traveling to do this, then I'll have nothing to lose.

Watch this space...
#941059 by notoverthehill
22 Jan 2018, 10:16
Hello All

Finally, they seem to have listened...and changed their tune!!

Response:
---------------------------------------
As a result of the recent downgrades and feedback from our loyal customers, including yourself, we now have two dedicated teams looking at Flying Club mileage refunds, and monetary refunds and ensuring that they have been handled correctly, or correcting them as per EU 261. We expect any outstanding mileage refund amounts to be completed by the end of January and the monetary refunds to be completed within the next two weeks.

I appreciate that this is a frustrating situation and I apologise for any discrepancies in your accounts. Please be assured that our teams are looking into all downgraded reservations and that any outstanding credit will be updated in due course.

---------------------------------------

Checked my FC account and I can see the correct mileage has now been refunded. Just waiting for the surcharge difference to appear in the next couple of weeks (hopefully!).

Thanks again everyone for the advice. I wonder if they would have done this without being nagged.....

Cheers
notoverthehill
#941060 by gumshoe
22 Jan 2018, 10:39
No, they wouldn't. And VS are actually one of the better airlines when it comes to paying out on EC261/2004. There are some that just will not pay and have to be taken to MCOL.

Glad to hear they've seen sense!
#941063 by mitchja
22 Jan 2018, 11:38
gumshoe wrote:No, they wouldn't. And VS are actually one of the better airlines when it comes to paying out on EC261/2004. There are some that just will not pay and have to be taken to MCOL.

Glad to hear they've seen sense!


Indeed...so much so that VS actually paid me twice for my single EU261 claim. I was completely honest though, told them and I didn't cash the second €600 cheque they sent me.

Looks like a mammoth claim session coming from the very late VS77 MAN>BGI yesterday as that arrived at BGI nearly 5 hours late!!
#941090 by Kraken
22 Jan 2018, 18:43
As above, in my experience (a VS75 that returned to MAN & then arrived at the gate in MCO a frustrating 10mins too early to pay out the full EU261 compensation of 600 Euros)... there was zero mention of EU261 when the flight arrived in MCO. All they mentioned was pax in PE & Y could claim food vouchers for use in the terminal as they'd had no hot food on the flight (it had started to cook before we returned to MAN so had to be binned - re-catering would have taken too long).

We both submitted EU261 claims - even though we were on G miles fares - and both were paid out upon receipt. We had the full UC service on the flight too with hot food cooked to order. Those "free" drinks courtesy of VS in MCO tasted so much nicer!
#941403 by notoverthehill
02 Feb 2018, 15:18
Hi

Just to let those in a similar position know, I've now received the cash part of the refund. So to summarise, I got the following:
75% of the miles paid for the PE flights
Cash difference between PE and E carrier surcharge (note that it was BGI-LGW, so there was no APD on the ticket)

cheers all
Virgin Atlantic

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