New Economy?

Yep,

Unless you are diminutive in stature, leg room and seat space are everything in economy.

If I want good food I'll go to a restaurant, if I want entertainment I'll go to a cinema or theatre. The understandable compromises that airlines have to make mean that the dining and entertainment experiences whilst in flight can only ever be 'okay' at best. Customer service is esssentially in the hands of the staff and to be honest VS have been fine by me.

The one thing that it would be possible for any airline to improve upon for a 30 to 50 pound increase in economy fares is leg room and seat space in economy.

Everything else is just frills - cramped seating is at best annoying and at worst dangerous!

Keith

i cant agree more
the only problem with economy is space . i am a very big guy 6foot and 150 kg and to be honest there was no way that i could face another economy flight i would rather stay in the uk.
but having stayedat home for several years i am to make my first ever uc flight in november. the fancy bits are nice, already booked the v touch and am looking with relish at the current menus but the bit that really matters is not just the extra leg room but the seat width too, to me that is the most important.
ill let you know when i get back if it was wirth the extra arm and leg it is costing !

[Pete]

Picking up on Declan's earlier comment that Virgin had researched and come to the conclusion people wouldn't pay extra for more room, it seems the overwhelming majority of VirginFlyers disagree and would be prepared to pay extra for more space.

If, as has been suggested, a new Economy is all about the meal service, I would dare to suggest that will be a mistake.

VirginFlyers already love the service - all they've got to do is fix the seat pitch.

Pix

I totally agree with Pixuk. The service is and has always been better than the others. For a few months now cabin crew have been talking about being sent on refresher Customer Service courses to sharpen the act a little bit more. With all due respect to Declan what can be so awe inspiring about a meal service? You give it to people, they eat it and then you clean it up. If it's served on plastic or china plate doesn't make that much difference. I must admit that, due to a tight pull on the financial reigns, the Virgin meals have gone somewhat down market compaired to a 5 years ago, ie: wine by the glass instead of the bottle, no menu in K and Y class, less salmon and more sausage etc!

This is only my opinion and I'm prepared to shot down in flames, but the ONLY thing Virgin can do to set them apart from the econonmy crowd is, as everyone else has said, extend the pitch. Everyone else has/is catching up with them in terms if IFE and to a certain degree service. It's only natural, as the market leaders you are put on a pedestal which everyone else will try to emulate. Making your staff give better service, leaving all the company attitude/environment aside, doesn't cost a penny, so they'll all try it.

Extending the pitch will cost money. The airline may absorb a percentage (imagine the £100,000's they save on advertising with press coverage) but inevitably, the passenger will have to pay more. I don't see how they can say that people are not willing to when, as Pix says, everyone on here seems to say they will, and the fact that K class seems to be fully booked on most flights. Essentially K class is only economy with a bigger pitch.

I'd like to know how often the Virgin management fly in an economy window seat to SFO or LAX, they would surely appreciate that it just isn't enough room and, along with all other airlines economy, deserves the term "Cattle Class".

When I'm unable to feel my legs any more, someone serving me a "swanky" meal really isn't going to make me feel better.

Perhaps someone with more a mathematical mind could work out how many rows would have to be removed to give an extra 3 inches of room in the remaining rows and therefor the cost in lost revenue per flight as a result.

I have to say, I would hope they sort out their PE first! We flew PE from LGW to MCO in Nov/Dec 2003 and the outbound was fine, large comfy seats, rather like the Club Orlando seats and this was downstairs.
On the way back we were put upstairs in the "real" PE seats. Was I unimpressed! yes, extraleg room, but the seats felt no wider than economy, and as they did not recine any more than the standard economy seat, they were totally uncomfortable for sleeping in. Arrived at LGW tired, aching back and a two hour road journey home. So, this year the choice is either Club Orlando from manchester for the seat or BA Club world from LGW for the seat/food. Someone please tell me that the seats on the MCO-LGW upstairs were an aberation and the standard PE is more like the downstairs seats?
There is also a new airline starting from BHX called FlyBlu, you should see their leg room! http://www.flyblu.co.uk

AlanA,
That's a shame how bad the experience was in PE. Unfortunately, the standard PE is like the upper deck on the LGW planes. By the way, the LGW 747s have a different layout than on the LHR 747s, the LHR ones have it on downstairs, just right of door 2L and on the back of the upper deck (upper class is on the front two sections downstairs and on the front of the upper deck on LHR 744s)
The seats you sat in on the way were actually Upper Class Seats (Upper Class is in between BAs Club World and BA First but with extras, would you get an onboard bar and in-flight massages on BA (a smaller bar and no massage on LGW flights though!). Sometimes Virgin do upgrade PE pax to the Upper Class seats if PE is full. On MAN flights, Upper Class is not on there and the highest service would be Club Orlando. By the way, Upper Class is being refurbished, so by spring 2005, LGW planes should have a seats called 'Upper Class Suites' which are bigger than Ba's Club world and BA First but I don't think PE will be upgraded in the same way as you did, but they still can. If the rumours are true they could make Economy and Premium better, although I found the service and products fab, and the seats in Economy ok.

Thanks (sorry I went off topic about Upper Class_

Wow Alan!

I just checked out the FlyBlu website! Impressive economy space indeed!

Come on VS, if your economy was given a similar seat pitch, we'd love you all the more

TJ

The only negative comment I heard when we had a look at the seats at the NEC travel show, was that the standard economy seats felt a little "snug"

[Pete]

Just taken a look myself.

Their Economy (Silver) would appear to stack up well against PE, although their Business (Gold) looks pretty poor against Upper.

However, it's a different story when you look at the price. I compared a flight to MCO in July, and their Economy looks similar to PE pricing, but their Business Class looks like a steal.

So their Gold Class at 45" and around £1100 for a return trip looks better value than their Silver Class at 38" and £750.

Pix

I agree with all the comments regarding economy, and how much extra we would all pay for those crucial few extra inches of space....but Virgin have done it already...isn't that exactly what PE is for?

Looking at the thread on who flies where, and how often I'd say we are not representative of your average VA passenger. Most passengers are not members of the Flying Club, most only travel long haul once a year, most never even consider paying extra for PE or UC, most never even consider an upgrade, and they all want it as cheap as possible.

Whatever we may think I'm guessing some suits at Virgin really have done their research and realised that the majority of people select their carrier on price alone. If Joe Bloggs is flying LHR-JFK they look at expedia, or ask their travel agents, if the BA flight is 230GBP and the VA flight is 240GBP then the majority will select the BA flight.

If the choice is between a US and a Brit airline they might think twice(everyone seems to like flying a "home" airline), but only if the difference is 10 or 20 quid, over that they'll take the cheapest.

This is in no way disparaging to Joe Bloggs, it's just the Virgin Flyer membership is not representative of the travelling public

VSlf

[Pete]

Ok, well I got out my abacus and did some calculations based on some (wild) assumptions of the average revenue per seat & the number of seats on each type of aircraft.

Obviously I don't have access to Virgin's detailed revenue reports, so these assumptions are speculation. Let's say the average seat revenue is between £195 (mega discount) and £800 (full fare), at £498. With a 31" seat pitch, that means Virgin are generating an average £16 per inch. If you want to increase seat pitch by 5" (for example), they'd need to increase average revenue by about £80. That doesn't mean a blanket increase, of course, they could just limit the amount of mega discount tickets available to skew the average higher and then no fares actually change.

Doing the same with PE (since, if you increase the Y Cabin to 36", you'd need to do something in PE too!), the above formula works out at about £27 per inch. An average extra of £80 would gain you about 3 more inches in PE.

If anyone has any better clues at to what the actual average revenue is, I'd be interested to see it

Pix

[Pete]

That's a fair point Vslf, although I would suggest Virgin have never been an organisation to hide their competitive features, and if they were to do something about seat pitch you can be sure their excellent marketing people found a way put it top of travellers priority lists.

Has everyone missed the point about not actually needing to change any of the published fares, or has my explanation of that thus fare just been confusing?

Pix

No, your explanation was fine as far as I'm concerned.

Do we have any indication as to when this 'improved' Y-Class product will launch? I'm off to EWR in September in economy and I'm wondering if the new service will be in by then!

cant tell you when but you will not be affected, you will ned to travel a month or two later!!!

[?][?][?][?][?]

Why the '[?]'s Declan?

Just mean everyone will have to wait until the end of the year to see whats happening with the changes.

Its great fun reading peoples thoughts here!:)

Hi,

Or as they say,

Stay tuned for further developments...

Thanks as always declansmith.


Regards

TBS
( about to go into the Bmi"Special room") at EDI & LHR due to his shiny new Gold card thingy this weekend!! [8D]

PS also trying out the Sheraton Skyline on Saturday ( £68 GBP)thanks to an SPG comp to Plat from HH Diamond

quote:Originally posted by pixuk
Has everyone missed the point about not actually needing to change any of the published fares, or has my explanation of that thus fare just been confusing?

Surely the point is that potential customers who are looking for the cheapest fare will compare actual prices that they are quoted at the point of booking, not the theoretical price of the discounted seats (which are no longer available on that flight as the few that were up for grabs will have been booked some time ago)? When I book I don't consider the published fare, I consider the fare I'm quoting at that time. If all the heavily discounted seats are already booked I will look to another airline which still has discounted fares available.

Regards

Rob

quote:Originally posted by Vslf
Looking at the thread on who flies where, and how often I'd say we are not representative of your average VA passenger. Most passengers are not members of the Flying Club, most only travel long haul once a year, most never even consider paying extra for PE or UC, most never even consider an upgrade, and they all want it as cheap as possible.

This is where I really like the way United do Economy Plus.

It's the front section of economy, so:

Regular economy seat
Regular economy service
But with 35-36" legroom, and maybe a tad more recline, which makes a world of difference.
Up near the front of Economy, so a bit quieter, and first dibs on the meal cart.
On the 767s and 777s you get a PTV (fairly similar lineup to Virgin Nova), the 744s are more spacious but lack PTV.
Unfortunately, no laptop power.

How do you get one of those seats?

Be Premier/Premier Exec/1K in UAL's Mileage Plus Programme, or
Be Star Alliance Silver or Gold, or
Travel on "full-fare" Y or B fares.

So, Joe Grockle who flies once a year and doesn't really care, just wants to pay the cheapest price, ends up down the back to sweat it out with 31 inches legroom in row 58.

The frequent fliers who do care about this stuff get the extra room they have asked for in the Economy Plus section.

I think it cost UAL two rows of Y seats on the 777 and three rows on the 744.

Now, I don't know if that sort of thing will fly for VS, who seem to rely on cramming as many people down the back as poss. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,
Mike