This area is set aside for off-topic discussion. Everything that's absolutely nothing to do with travel at all... But please, keep it polite! Forum netiquette rules still apply.
#855517 by jfenney
26 Aug 2013, 10:43
A question or a thought one reason this tax was brought in was to charge for what we all determine is more a environmental tax.

If this was true surely the tax should also come down if airline companies are using better and more fuel efficient aircraft similar to fuel prices. IF that isn't the case then the duty tax is just another stealth tax or am I way off the mark here ?|
#855519 by pjh
26 Aug 2013, 11:01
I think there's a Treasury paper out there that accepts this is now seen as a revenue raiser. It's hardly a 'stealth' tax though - it's about as stealthy as a brick through the window.

The fuel efficiency issue is one that is raised by the industry, but from a practical point of view (assuming for the moment that APD is a given) how would this be administered if operational reasons force an aircraft change on a route to a less efficient aircraft?
#855523 by PaulS
26 Aug 2013, 12:05
It's an easy way of raising money. Just call it a green tax like the congestion in London and vehcile excise licence which are made to look environmently friendly by using emissions. Dosent matter whether your Pruis is causing congestion by entering London or if you drive 100,000 miles a year your coassed as being green. However you are still hammered if you drive a high emission vehicle even if you only use it very occasionally.

This back door taxation is why I can fly from Spain to Dubai and get on the same aircraft a Heathow as my daughter but pay £450 less due to Spain's lower APD and other charges. This is probably said of most Euro hubs. It's only because heathrow is working at full capacity that the damage that this is causing to the Uk economy is hidden. You only have to read the forums on the USA airlines to see how many people avoid the UK because of the APD
#855533 by gfonk
26 Aug 2013, 16:11
The point that paulS raises is an interesting one
Could it therefore work out cheaper to take a LCA to a European hub and then take a major airline on to your long hail destination cheaper than getting on the flight at LHR?
Assuming ofcourse that you didn't stay at a hotel in the European hub for one night otherwise this would probably negate any potential savings to me made.
Further to paulS point I wonder if our RH "gentleman" in parliament realise that our overpriced APD tax is causing people to avoid LHR as a hub? Hmmm
Interesting.
#855535 by gumshoe
26 Aug 2013, 16:37
gfonk wrote:Could it therefore work out cheaper to take a LCA to a European hub and then take a major airline on to your long hail destination cheaper than getting on the flight at LHR?


Yes. It's known as the Amsterdam trick (although it can work equally well via other European cities like Frankfurt, Brussels & Paris).

Some friends of mine are going via Brussels to SFO in UC both ways - price £1800 compared to £3500 if they'd booked via VS as normal. They'll have to get the Eurostar to BRU and stay overnight but that's only about £100.

So if you're prepared to put up with the inconvenience and extended journey time, there are some huge savings to be made. (And no, you can't just miss out the first leg - doing so would render the whole ticket void.)

Interesting though that the £1700 saving clearly isn't all down to lower taxes & fees. VS must be very heavily discounting the fare (which includes BA Club Europe on both the BRU legs). Which begs the question why is it so high from London?
#855540 by honey lamb
26 Aug 2013, 17:14
gumshoe wrote:
gfonk wrote:Could it therefore work out cheaper to take a LCA to a European hub and then take a major airline on to your long hail destination cheaper than getting on the flight at LHR?


Yes. It's known as the Amsterdam trick (although it can work equally well via other European cities like Frankfurt, Brussels & Paris).

Done it a few times and it does save me over 1K in euros. :D
#855546 by Brannap
26 Aug 2013, 18:11
I'm currently in Vancouver and was reading an article last week in the Globe & Mail that was recommending readers avoid the UK due to the high levels of APD. Was also speaking to a local who works for a consulting group which is now using Amsterdam as a hub airport rather than LHR to avoid the UK's APD. When will the government wake up to the damage that APD is doing to the UK's economy, airlines and airports?
#855547 by Hamster
26 Aug 2013, 18:14
Remember that the maximum APD is "only" £188 (£134 to USA and UAE) in anything above economy, £94 (£67) in economy.

The vast majority of the difference in price by going via Europe is the increased competition.
#855559 by PaulS
26 Aug 2013, 19:56
The problem for VS is that as Craig Keeper says he want to get more US passengers and whilst APD is so high it's goin to be far harder
#855569 by tontybear
26 Aug 2013, 21:25
Brannap wrote: When will the government wake up to the damage that APD is doing to the UK's economy, airlines and airports?


But is it?

It hasn't stopped BA and VS starting new routes has it? e.g. VS to YVR

And Ryanair and Easyjet are always adding new destinations.

And DL started a NEW flight to BOS last year (or was it 2011?) and a LHR-SEA is starting next year - and that's just 2 off the top of my head.

And airlines are adding extra capacity by using the A380 and they wouldn't do that if the demand for seats wasn't there. And no they are not always consolidating two flights on a normal plane - they are keeping the number of flights per day.

And the UK is not the only country that has transportation taxes or departure taxes - and some of those are popular VS destinations.

And people will always try to reduce their impact e.g. the AMS 'trick' but in reality not enough people know of it / do it to impact that much on the overall revenue and if it started to fall then no doubt the regulations would soon be altered in some way.

As to Canada they have high taxes and fares too and people do the equivalent of AMS and drive to SEA rather than fly from YVR of Buffalo rather than Toronto.


Finally as for airports it hasn't stopped a US based firm buying LGW or EDI or the Spanish buying BAA (as was) and said firms investing heavily in new facilities.
#855683 by PaulS
27 Aug 2013, 11:09
Yes airlines will try and add capacity but I remember SRB and WW of BA joining forces last year and asking people to email their MP's over this issue. Ryan air and Easyjet will always try to operate where there is a demand but will drop a route instantly it starts to ecome loss making.

VS is suffering big losses and needs higher yields. Last year 9 of my family flew UC with VS to MBJ. This year we are going to PLS and would have bought 9 UC via MIA, but it was over £5k cheaper to fly them all to Spain and then go with AA to MIA and back to LHR on BA. I am sure if APD continues to rise it will stunt growth in the UK
#855688 by Hamster
27 Aug 2013, 11:41
PaulS wrote:Yes airlines will try and add capacity but I remember SRB and WW of BA joining forces last year and asking people to email their MP's over this issue. Ryan air and Easyjet will always try to operate where there is a demand but will drop a route instantly it starts to ecome loss making.

VS is suffering big losses and needs higher yields. Last year 9 of my family flew UC with VS to MBJ. This year we are going to PLS and would have bought 9 UC via MIA, but it was over £5k cheaper to fly them all to Spain and then go with AA to MIA and back to LHR on BA. I am sure if APD continues to rise it will stunt growth in the UK


But the majority of that saving is not APD?
#860408 by starquake
28 Oct 2013, 22:04
APD is killing UK airlines at expense of LHR/LGW.

Case in point, 2 months ago, 4 colleagues from US came over. Flew via Rome, work paid for internal flight over from Rome on EasyJet. Flew back via AMS (Easyjet again).

Total price for flights alone was less than ex-LHR/LGW - they picked up the hotels overnight in AMS/Rome - as they were personal hols, but work picked up rest as represented a several hundred pound saving at the time over the direct to UK option, and gave them a "free holiday". Office even offered to pay hotel in end for one night at each place, as that too would still have been a saving.

How long will it take before most business visitors start doing same -- and it's not just business travellers who realise this it will be tourists. Resulting in less money spent in Britain overall. I can see Eurostar, at some point doing a full service ticket from Brussels/Paris CDG, for less than APD. It's as notices scarily close and a nice day out to fly UC from these places already for "less"
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