V-Flyer

90% plus of those voting have voted for a strike.

First one planned for 22nd December and will last 12 days.

Saw this on another forum and thought it was rather apt:

quote:Unite: I know, why dont we call a strike at one of the busiest times of the year, when everyone will be really supportive of the action and raise happy smiles at the picket lines knowing its a good cause.
BA: Please dont do that, the profit and loss forecast is completely f*cked, weve got a pension black hole of 3.7bn and lost 292 million last year, and were teetering on the edge of bankruptcy
Unite: Give us nicer coffee
BA: No
STRIKE and thus the end of BA.

Obviously BA aren't planning to strike over coffee, rather 10% redundancies and a two year pay freeze, but sometimes I do wonder whether Unite, et al, aren't being a bit blind to the economic realities out there at the moment.

I completely agree Pete.

I've not had a pay rise since Aug 08, we've also had substantial redundancies in the last 12 months (about 40% in the UK and 20% worldwide). No Christmas hampers or turkeys here this year (which has been a long standing tradition where I work, having received them every year for the 16 years I've worked there). Had all the usual budgets and capex cuts etc etc.

Sorry, but you have just got to get on with it and be thankful you still have a job. If you don't like it, find somewhere else to work.

I've absolutely no sympathy for BA cabin crew what so ever. They strike and they have to accept the consequences.

Regards

quote:Originally posted by Pete

Obviously BA aren't planning to strike over coffee, rather 10% redundancies and a two year pay freeze, but sometimes I do wonder whether Unite, et al, aren't being a bit blind to the economic realities out there at the moment.


Everyone's playing the moral hazard game now. They assume the govt won't let BA fail, so unions and mgmt are playing hardball to get as much as they can since they figure they'll get bailed out in the worst case scenario. That's actually being very alert to the realities of the moment, at least until one govt grows a pair and decides to let a big company fail for a change, and a few others follow suit.

I wouldn't put money on the UK government bailing them out. In previous years they have made very health profits and should have made provisions for time of famine.

The winners will be all the other carriers waiting to take the flying public's money.

I also seriously doubt the UK government would bail BA out if it came down to that.

Regards

I don't suppose BA would completely die for a second - but it may go into administration, and then either be bought up to be stripped of its assets (slots, etc), or under completely new terms of management (hey, maybe Ryanair...). Either way; no one wins.

Please BA; don't strike. Or rather, please Unite, stop acting like will still live in the 1970s.

Unite members believe that BA is attacking an unjustifiable number of their working conditions in an attempt to force a more structural change than is necessary. They have also proposed a number of changes that help BA cut, cost but BA is refusing to discuss those, only the agenda it has and items it wants to cut.

I don't agree with this strike now, many CC are probably heads in the sand, change does need to happen, and all BA staff groups need to contribute (I know people who work in IT, marketing and other head office, and they have certainly been affected).

BUT union bashing is easy because the perception is that unions only ever want more or are intransigent. I've learnt over time that this is not always the case, and, that view leaves the other party free of any blame ...

I doubt very much it will happen. From what I undersatand BA have a legal team working on it and I doubt both WW and the union will bash something out. It will be very very short sighted for it to happen. If it does all go wrong I can see the airline restructure and a new crew company on new terms.

quote:Originally posted by slinky09

BUT union bashing is easy because the perception is that unions only ever want more or are intransigent. I've learnt over time that this is not always the case, and, that view leaves the other party free of any blame ...


The socialist in me would normally agree, but having watched Unite mis-manage the Virgin dispute, I see their abilities in this area led by wrong-headedness.

Playing Hardball may be all well and good, but I think this is not the time and suspect the damage may already be done if the Daily Mail wants to put this up tomorrow morning as yet another systemic failure of the current Government.

It will turn people away for a long time to come[V][V]

buns

quote:Originally posted by Dreamflight
I doubt very much it will happen. From what I undersatand BA have a legal team working on it and I doubt both WW and the union will bash something out. It will be very very short sighted for it to happen. If it does all go wrong I can see the airline restructure and a new crew company on new terms.


Not sure what BA can do legally. There was a 90%+ vote in favour on an 80%+ turnout which is VERY clear cut. If BA had any legal doubts about the ballot e.g. over the information sent by the union to its members or the way it was conducted then they would have involved m'learned friends ages ago.

Most union ballots are now carried out by independent election organisations so there can be no allegations of intimidation at mass meetings like in the 1970's.

The union has given the correct legal notice to BA that it is going to get its members to go on strike, so no joy there.

Yes of course the union has chosen a 'bad' time to go on strike but isn't that all part of their bargaining position? Its main aim is to put maximum pressure on BA to settle the dispute.

It seams to me that BA have been doing too much imposition of changes to CCs working conditions etc and not been listening enough to what the union has been offering or if it has BA has been under valuing it.

We are not party to all the dealings between the union and BA but I do know that the BF of a friend of mine who is BA CC has been waiting for almost a year for his application to go part time to be considered and there are 100's of other staff in the same situation. It is actualy things like this that make the CC get hacked off with the BA management.

So much for the public announcements that BA wanted staff to go part time.

As to any idea of a Government bailout if BA did go under - why would it do this? BA is not a vital public service and indeed since it has been privatised it has waved the 'we are private' flag high and proud. Yes BA going bust would inconvenience a lot of people and there would be job lossses but it's not the same as a bank going down the tubes and millions of people not being able to access their for a long period. However one good thing for a smaller BA that would emerge is that it would free up slots at LHR and that would increase competition for us pax.

I can see a few late nights at ACAS in the next few days and then a resolution just before the strike is due to go ahead.

Unite strikes me as pretty self serving publicity seeking union, they inflame members and give them false hope and then do a backroom deal with management wether union members like it or not.

Didn't see much sympathy from BA CC during the VA dispute.

That Walsh bloke always came accross as a little door handle to me but his message on the BA website reads pretty factual to me.

Although he did say BA was best financially placed for the times compared to other airlines which sounded very Mr Brownish lol.

I am not right wing more left of centre but Unite justcome accross as a bunch of trouble making clots living in cloud cuckoo land.

quote:Originally posted by tontybear

As to any idea of a Government bailout if BA did go under - why would it do this? BA is not a vital public service and indeed since it has been privatised it has waved the 'we are private' flag high and proud. Yes BA going bust would inconvenience a lot of people and there would be job lossses but it's not the same as a bank going down the tubes and millions of people not being able to access their for a long period. However one good thing for a smaller BA that would emerge is that it would free up slots at LHR and that would increase competition for us pax.


I would imagine there would be some pretty P@?!*d off people at Corus if the Government were to bail BA out [V]


NOC

BA share price down today just 0.15%
Still up 50% from July.

Many shareholders may welcome a confrontation to get Unite & BASSA off BA's back to allow them to return to profit.

Interesting that as of right now, Unite makes no mention of the strike on their site. The only mention of BA was last week, stating they were going to announce the results of the ballot action. Maybe they are waiting for their PR people to try and come up with a way of selling this ridiculous strike in a favourable way to the public.

While I am far from being right wing, and support the rights of workers to be able to strike WHEN NECESSARY, right now is not the time. There is a reason accountants study different classes and have different training to cabin crew. I wouldn't expect an accountant to be able to smile (not that BA are known for this anyway) and remain calm when dealing with a miserable git of a passenger, in the same way I wouldn't expect cabin crew to fully understand a company's annual report. However, I would have thought the pretty chart on the BBC News site today would have been self explanatory to the BA staff. The company made a 300m loss in the first six months of this year. Enough said. Cuts have to be made.

My sister works for GE, where there have been job losses and there is a pay freeze in effect. It's the same in most companies and areas of the economy, and is something we have to deal with. If the chartered accountants and management of BA have decided that staff cuts and a pay freeze are necessary to keep the company afloat, then BA staff should accept that, and most should be thankful for at least still having a job.

If they still feel they must strike, why time it for Christmas? Second week of January would be better. By forcing the cancellation of potentially thousands of flights over the busiest time from October-April, can they not see they are further hammering the nails in the coffin? Aside from the huge loss of revenue over the 12 days, there is the loss of future revenue as pax whose flights are cancelled can decide to be booked onto another flight, which could well be in the summer, filling planes up and taking seats BA could otherwise sell. Added to that the huge loss of goodwill, and surely now you are left with tens of millions of additional losses, and a company nobody likes. How does that help anything??

Regarding a bailout from the government....I don't see that happening. As has already been mentioned, banks are one thing, but airlines are another. There should be no reason BA should get help from the government, none at all. The worst I could see happening would be that they are forced into bankruptcy, from which would emerge a leaner and probably smaller company, which also as mentioned would probably free up slots at certain airports and promote competition. Maybe not a bad thing.

I hope the strike doesn't go ahead, not because I want BA to cave in to the cabin crew demands, but because I feel bad for the thousands who will have their Christmas travel plans ruined. Most other airlines are pretty full up this festive period, there aren't many options for those who have flights cancelled.

One thing to consider, the UK bankruptcy laws are different from the US ones, if BA were to file would they be able to continue to fly ?

I'm no expert when it comes to money, but I don't think they would be able to carry on operating as they would not have access to any credit to continue the day to day running and paying of bills etc.

Regards

quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
One thing to consider, the UK bankruptcy laws are different from the US ones, if BA were to file would they be able to continue to fly ?


The first step is generally administration, under which a business can keep trading while buyers are sought for it or its parts. So yes, they would likely continue to fly. Then, joy oh joy if the pension scheme fails guess who'll step in to pick it up, oh, that'll be the rest of us.

I think there's a strong probability this strike won't happen or will be watered down considerably.Let's x-fingers.

I was also thinking that it could create havoc all over, I read over on FTalk of people with BA flights booking refundable fares with other airlines. Just think on the effect to those airlines if BA doesn't strike and they fly with lots of empty, expensive seats at a time of year when they should be full.

VS can't be happy either. Having cut so much capacity, they could be raking it in!

It's going to be interesting to see how the PR people spin this on both sides.

If I was at BA right now I would be screaming at WW to get in front of a camera, say that they have been trying to work with the union and that he is sickened that his employees would do this to the British public over Christmas.

Now if I was at the Union I would be screaming at whoever to get in front of a camera, say that they have been working for over a year to try and reach an agreement with BA, but they won't budge AND there is no way the crews will strike over Christmas, they are more than willing to put up with 2 more weeks of BA to make sure those people traveling to and from the UK over Christmas will not have their travel plans disrupted.

AA cabin crew went on strike over Thanksgiving a few years ago, then decided to picket airports, needless to say the traveling public didn't see things their way, which ever side spins this correctly will win the people, my money is on BA.

quote:Originally posted by slinky09
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
One thing to consider, the UK bankruptcy laws are different from the US ones, if BA were to file would they be able to continue to fly ?


.....I read over on FTalk of people with BA flights booking refundable fares with other airlines......

We did exactly that but did so weeks ago when first aware of the strike threat. The cost of that fully flex ticket on an alternative carrier (OA) back then was sufficiently low that we'll recoup the money from the BA refund.

The same flex ticket on OA yesterday afternoon was 1018 (we paid 206) and today there's nothing. Even on Easyjet's LGW-ATH route today there are no seats from next Tuesday onwards! I feel sorry for the tens of thousands who are now doing exactly this, ie. trying to find alternative carriers, but without a hope in hell. Let's hope the strike doesn't happen and the Christmas of a million odd people round the world can go ahead as planned.

So I shifted our inbound flight till the 20th but I really am stuck in what to do for our return back on the 30th Dec. Do I hold out for a peace deal or shift carrier. This really is a pain in the butt.
Or just have an extended Christmas /new year break and fly back on the 3rd[}:)]

Iain

This has the makings of 'Irresistible force meets immovable object'

quote:Originally posted by iforres1
So I shifted our inbound flight till the 20th but I really am stuck in what to do for our return back on the 30th Dec. Do I hold out for a peace deal or shift carrier. This really is a pain in the butt.
Or just have an extended Christmas /new year break and fly back on the 3rd[}:)]

Just realised extending the break is not an option as Mrs F + 2 are flying LH BEG-LED on the 2nd Jan[:?]
Iain

quote:Originally posted by slinky09
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
One thing to consider, the UK bankruptcy laws are different from the US ones, if BA were to file would they be able to continue to fly ?


Then, joy oh joy if the pension scheme fails guess who'll step in to pick it up, oh, that'll be the rest of us.




Actually that will be picked up by the pension funds, that are insured for this by themselves.If BA goes into administration, the Pensions Protection Fund (a national body financed by small annual fees charged to all UK pension funds) will take over the pension fund, including all its assets and liabilities, and will top it up to ensure that the pensions will be paid in future.