V-Flyer

Has anyone else heard that VA are to lease 2 SA 744 and add them to the LGW fleet? That would be nice y)

Iain

No I haven't heard that at all. Where did you get that from?

I know that SA retired their 4 744's a couple of years back but they have recently been brought out of retirement (they were stored at JNB) and are currently flying around in all white operating mainly to LHR and LOS.

Hmm that sounds interesting. If i remember rightly the SAA 747's have Rolls Royce engines so surely that would cause a couple of issues for engineering?

And it also seems odd for VS to be leasing aircraft when they already have 1 on lease to somebody else and one parked up? Wouldnt it be easier to just use what they already have as such?

Hi Will,

A friend of mine from the UK who is an avaiation consultant may have mentioned it to me on Sat night over a few beers.
Suppose we will see.

Iain

I have not heard anything about that, let me do some digging.

If the airline has a need and the money leasing a 744 right now is a pretty cheap way of adding a lot of extra capacity to a fleet, however Transareo have been grabbing most of the good ones.

Whilst I understand another 744 would fit into the fleet in terms of engineering, staff and logistics I really can't understand the following they have. Is it nostalgia?

From my experience they are noisy, old fashioned and most airlines waste the novelty of the 'bump' with odd layouts - not to mention efficiency. Either bring back the Pan Am lounge concept or please buy some two engined 'craft. A330 aren't bad but a 77W would be ideal ...

It's a Marmite thing!

Dubaiification wrote:Whilst I understand another 744 would fit into the fleet in terms of engineering, staff and logistics I really can't understand the following they have. Is it nostalgia?

From my experience they are noisy, old fashioned and most airlines waste the novelty of the 'bump' with odd layouts - not to mention efficiency. Either bring back the Pan Am lounge concept or please buy some two engined 'craft. A330 aren't bad but a 77W would be ideal ...

While a 77W is probably the best thing VS (or any longhaul airline) could have, there are a few of issues with them, one of them specific to VS right now,it applies to the 330's/787's as well.

The first is actually getting one, there is a waiting list for them, a 744 you can pick up at VCV tomorrow.

The second is the cost, while a 77W costs between $85.2M-136.2M and has a lease rate of $850K-1,250,000

A 744 can be had for between $20.0M-$73.1M and lease rates of $380K-$750K

So you can see, while the 77W is more efficient than the 744 it would take a while to make up the costs.

This all of course assumes that you can fill either aircraft.

Also as pointed out in another thread, the 744 is a fantastic cargo hauler which is an important part of VS's business, the 744 has a cargo hold of 5,599 cu ft, the 77W has 5,330 cu ft

And of course there is the crew training part (which for the 330 is pretty easy, the 787 not so much) and ETOPS restrictions which VS will have to live with for a year as they are not ETOPS certified.

With all that said, going back in time, VS would of been better off with the 77W, however the price they paid for their 744's was way below market value.

It may be a marmite thing, but I agree with:

Dubaiification wrote:From my experience they are noisy, old fashioned

Scrooge wrote:The second is the cost, while a 77W costs between $85.2M-136.2M and has a lease rate of $850K-1,250,000

Is that second hand? I thought new 77Ws had a list price of c. $250m?

Oh, and picking up A340s is a cheap option :w .

But currently, it's a rumour, and with the two stored 346s coming back there's immediate capacity boost.

Sorry yes I should of been more clear on that, that's what you can pick one up for used.

slinky09 wrote: picking up A340s is a cheap option :w .

But currently, it's a rumour, and with the two stored 346s coming back there's immediate capacity boost.

There's even a rumour that VS are getting rid of 4 A343s.

That's a rumor I have heard as well.

Scrooge wrote:That's a rumor I have heard as well.

Also heard the same, but surely though as the Heathrow configured A333s come in?

Interesting info, thanks.

Al Baker has famously said on the A340-600 "If I could, I would throw them away. These planes are not efficient at all."

The A333s will be ETOPS restricted till 2012.
Also either range or cargo weight restricted.

They are great for low capacity routes and/or to East coast and Africa but cannot compete with the 744 for longer routes with full cargo.

B787-9 should carry 36 LD3s, less than the 346 (42) but more than the 744 (32) although the latter can carry the slightly larger LD1s.
The late delivery of the B787 is hurting VS.

Dubaiification wrote:Al Baker has famously said on the A340-600 "If I could, I would throw them away. These planes are not efficient at all."

Al Baker is famous for trashing anything and everything, he took the decision to buy them, then ran them on mid-distance 4/5 hrs flights where an A346 is never going to be efficient. Here's what he said when they arrived:

"This is a wonderful aircraft that excels in comfort and efficiency and I am sure our customers will have a thoroughly enjoyable flying experience on our long-haul routes."

Getting back OT. I don't think that SAA will give these birds up. It seems strange that they are looking to get rid of them just after they have re-entered service for SAA. However the lack of a livery on the side of them could hint at SAA "running them in" before they move on.

Yes the 77W is the plane that VS should have selected a number of years ago, they really should have. The only possible way to see the 77W in the fleet currently would be to wet lease them off 9W. But it just won't happen.

Thai is now leasing the 9W birds I thought, boy those things have been around the world a bit, it's a shame as the TR is saw they looked amazing.

Thanks Bill, I was trying to hunt down the LD3 number but was falling asleep

And yes, Al Baker is really the MOL of the Gulf area, the 346 can be a very efficient aircraft, if it's run on the right routes.

Some SAA aircraft had PW4056 engines, although i think they are now in CX colours as BCF's.

As for CF6 powered B744's looks like QF have a couple available for lease, though they've been around the houses (ex MAS)!!!

Heard a snippet that the two A346's may allow VS to return two A343's. Looks like the A343 has had it's day as CX are leaving some in storage until the end of their leases!!

The B777 not an option for VS as it would be to many different aircraft types for CC to operate.

Denzil wrote:Heard a snippet that the two A346's may allow VS to return two A343's. Looks like the A343 has had it's day as CX are leaving some in storage until the end of their leases!!

Be interesting if this transpires - weren't the two A346s stored the first of the production line, with the highest weight / fuel efficiency issues? Returning these to service in place of the relatively more fuel efficient A343s and a bigger plane might be too much aircraft / cost for some routes the A343 flies?

However, in the overall balance of things (lease terms / costs / resaleability of the A346s / time to introduce A333s / etc.) then it may be more efficient to do as you rumour?

Aren't VS also recruiting cabin crew again, that also suggests growth?

Scrooge wrote:

Dubaiification wrote:Whilst I understand another 744 would fit into the fleet in terms of engineering, staff and logistics I really can't understand the following they have. Is it nostalgia?

From my experience they are noisy, old fashioned and most airlines waste the novelty of the 'bump' with odd layouts - not to mention efficiency. Either bring back the Pan Am lounge concept or please buy some two engined 'craft. A330 aren't bad but a 77W would be ideal ...

While a 77W is probably the best thing VS (or any longhaul airline) could have, there are a few of issues with them, one of them specific to VS right now,it applies to the 330's/787's as well.

The first is actually getting one, there is a waiting list for them, a 744 you can pick up at VCV tomorrow.

The second is the cost, while a 77W costs between $85.2M-136.2M and has a lease rate of $850K-1,250,000

A 744 can be had for between $20.0M-$73.1M and lease rates of $380K-$750K

So you can see, while the 77W is more efficient than the 744 it would take a while to make up the costs.

This all of course assumes that you can fill either aircraft.

Also as pointed out in another thread, the 744 is a fantastic cargo hauler which is an important part of VS's business, the 744 has a cargo hold of 5,599 cu ft, the 77W has 5,330 cu ft

And of course there is the crew training part (which for the 330 is pretty easy, the 787 not so much) and ETOPS restrictions which VS will have to live with for a year as they are not ETOPS certified.

With all that said, going back in time, VS would of been better off with the 77W, however the price they paid for their 744's was way below market value.

Excellent bits of info, Dave.

Chuck-

slinky09 wrote:weren't the two A346s stored the first of the production line, with the highest weight / fuel efficiency issues? Returning these to service in place of the relatively more fuel efficient A343s and a bigger plane might be too much aircraft / cost for some routes the A343 flies?

Correct the two 346's in question arrived later at VS (so were not the first arrivals) but were three and four off the line in France, or at least something like that.

However, in the overall balance of things (lease terms / costs / resaleability of the A346s / time to introduce A333s / etc.) then it may be more efficient to do as you rumour?

I personally don't think the 346 will be that re-saleable. If you think about it, when VS come to want to get rid of them the market will be saturated with second 77W's. You also have to wonder who would want them. Look at the trouble AC had in getting rid of them. Other than someone looking to build their 346 fleet up (think LH) I don't see who would go for them.

Everything can be sold, if the price is right.

I can see the 346's becoming cargo haulers, they really are pretty good at lifting large volumes of goods over long distances, but it will be a decade or more before we start to see that (if it happens at all)