V-Flyer

Some detail here.
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There have been rumours of trouble for some time but this seems to be the first with detail.

BALPA (the Pilots union) claims that Virgin Atlantic management are violating their industrial agreement by reducing the annual entitlement of "Rostered Days Off" if they go sick or take leave.

Both sides have so far been keen to keep the dispute under wraps as all are conscious of how a dispute could hinder the recovery from the effects of recession, but alas all the talking seems to have failed and it looks set to go to a ballot for industrial action. And there is little doubt as to the result.

I should emphasise it is yet to be confirmed elsewhere but I note that there is no denial - yet!

Perhaps an opportunity for BA to get some of their custom back.
This will not be good for VS.

Oh for goodness sake. Who do we book with now?! !

The OP on the other place is a "first time" poster.
Suggests that someone is keeping their ID hidden from colleagues as well as company.

Possibly someone who has got fed up with discussions and so posted on a public forum.

I do not see IA happening - but some VS crew do not seem happy at the moment.

Well that is hardly surprising seeing as most of the working force in this and many other countries are suffering. Tough times all round unfortunately.

maz wrote:Oh for goodness sake. Who do we book with now?! !

Perhaps we should start our own airline ?

SNOMO wrote:

maz wrote:Oh for goodness sake. Who do we book with now?! !

Perhaps we should start our own airline ?

I think the collective knowledge of folk on this forum would get it off to a good start. Until everyone wants to strike that is. 8D

A much more detailed description of the problem.

VS flightcrew do seem to have a grievance - I hope for all our sakes that VS flight ops. managers sort it out soon.

Only on specialist websites such as this at the moment but if/when it hits the media VS will lose bookings.

A little bit complicated for me, but as an 'ignoranti'(I guess) I will go with your assessment here. I hope it is settled soon.

maz wrote:

SNOMO wrote:

maz wrote:Oh for goodness sake. Who do we book with now?! !

Perhaps we should start our own airline ?

I think the collective knowledge of folk on this forum would get it off to a good start. Until everyone wants to strike that is. 8D

We can start it over here, they won't be allowed to strike.

I've not read every single detail about all this however if I were in that position I'd strike. You can't take peoples days off off them just because they've taken holiday leave or have been ill, that's shocking! v(

Lizz wrote:I've not read every single detail about all this however if I were in that position I'd strike. You can't take peoples days off off them just because they've taken holiday leave or have been ill, that's shocking! v(

Hate to say this Lizz but this is standard practice in the US - use up your leave etc if you have been ill before any form of sick pay is awarded.

Note to self, never move to the US! Problem is were not used to it over here, hence peoples reactions to such things.

There seems to be some confusion – they are not losing leave (holidays).

AFAIK, under existing agreements, a pilot gets 120 days off a year – guaranteed! These are the RDOs, the Rostered Days Off.

At first sight this might seem a lot but consider the “normal” 5 day week plus bank holidays – thats 104 days weekends plus 8 bank holidays plus a common Christmas to New year “extra” – that’s 115 days off!
Before you say 120 days is more than I get; consider that unlike a pilot:

you probably know what days you will have off. A pilot is only given his roster 2 weeks in advance with days off to suit the company.
you probably can count on being at home for important birthdays & anniversaries - or at least near to them.
most of us get to go home most nights.

A pilot also gets other time “off” – specifically the day after each long-haul trip. This Non-Rostered Day is to get over jet lag. So a typical roster for a (3 day) trip could be:

Day 1: fly LGW-MCO
Day 2: fly overnight MCO-LGW
Day 3: complete the LGW-MCO
Day 4: Non Rostered Day “off” to rest & recover.

All of these days are effectively equivalent to the working days of us normal grafters.

If something happens – a delay or a sudden company need to work a 4 day trip, then the pilot will fly on Day 4. This is an NRD and still classed as working time – no problem with that – so no compensation for working it!

But what happens if Day 5 is an RDO – that’s one of the “guaranteed” days off? The pilot turns up to work expecting a 4 day stint but is then suddenly told he is needed for an extra day. VS & BALPA have had an agreement that that RDO that the pilot was expecting, would be simply transferred to a later date – in effect the “lost” day off will be rostered at a later time convenient to the company. The 120 days off will be maintained.

VS flight-ops seem to have changed their interpretation of that agreement. They have reduced the number of pilots to the point that they cannot find the days to allow off. To balance the books they have simply retrospectively changed some NRDs into RDOs. Effectively saying because you did not fly that day it is one of your days off; retrospectively! – completely missing the point of that agreement: these RDOs are guaranteed pre-planned days off – and days off when you are not recovering from a long flight and jet-lag.

The dispute is over a change in agreed Terms & Conditions. Imposition! Where have we heard that before?
It is just one of a number of issues that are becoming a great concern and causing a breakdown between flightcrew and management.

We very rarely hear VS flightcrew raising issues that might damage the company - indeed the OP on PPRuNe did mention:

Both sides have so far been keen to keep the dispute under wraps as all are conscious of how a dispute could hinder the recovery from the effects of recession

We now have not one, but a number of VS pilots expressing great unhappiness openly over on PPRuNe.

And now the media have it!

Oh great. Yet more uncertainty to take away the happy anticipation of an uncoming holiday..

Interesting little slip this getting in the public domain!!!!

Denzil wrote:Interesting little slip this getting in the public domain!!!!

I can just see a pilot standing there saying:
"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment"

NOT a good headline.

I was speaking to the FSM on my flight on Sunday - and he just couldn't believe that it would come down to a strike - in fact he 'promised' me it wouldn't end in a strike

Following reading more about this, I do have a lot of sympathy with the pilots regarding this (although I'm anti strike in any situation).

Unfortunately for the pilots it would be almost impossible to get across in the media the intricate details of their contracts and the finer points of the dispute - especially as all people will see is 120 days off, which they will compare to their 25 days off (which are of course completely different things).

catsilversword wrote:Oh great. Yet more uncertainty to take away the happy anticipation of an uncoming holiday..

Indeed n(

tontybear wrote:
Hate to say this Lizz but this is standard practice in the US - use up your leave etc if you have been ill before any form of sick pay is awarded.

No offence, but this is nonsense. (Have worked in the USA for about 40 years) While employers here are stingy about leave etc, there would be hell to pay if people were docked earned leave when they were sick.

Surely the question is, if the changes are so bad why are they still flying with VS? If other airlines don't do the same then surely it makes more sense to jump ship than to try to sink the thing. Something I never understand about striking.

Perhaps we could ask the coal miners if strike action is effective?

Dubaiification wrote:Surely the question is, if the changes are so bad why are they still flying with VS? If other airlines don't do the same then surely it makes more sense to jump ship than to try to sink the thing. Something I never understand about striking.

Perhaps we could ask the coal miners if strike action is effective?

Many airlines have been reducing pilot numbers in recent years, with notable exceptions like EK. It's hardly a hiring market in the West.

Jumping ship in this case means jumping into a foreign country. Quite a few have. One of the causes of the problem - now not enough people to do the job.

I would guess that few actually think that it will ever get to the strike stage. (as with many strikes)
The public threat of a strike is a very strong expression of their concerns for the issues.
It clearly demonstrates that those pilots have lost confidence in the ability of particular managers to to do their jobs. A clear and very loud message to the owner(s).

Interesting that since the BALPA meeting all has gone very quiet.

On the Virgin Atlantic Facebook page, Greg seems optimistic - he posts
We have had constructive talks with our pilots’ representatives and have presented a clear proposal to clarify the issue.... We recognise the significant contribution that our pilots make to our business and are pleased that we have been able to respond to their concerns in this way.

Time will tell. ):

Nick

Nottingham Nick wrote:On the Virgin Atlantic Facebook page, Greg seems optimistic - he posts
We have had constructive talks with our pilots’ representatives and have presented a clear proposal to clarify the issue.... We recognise the significant contribution that our pilots make to our business and are pleased that we have been able to respond to their concerns in this way.

Time will tell. ):

Nick

Isn't that a contrast to how cabin crew problems are dealt with v( . All things are never equal!