V-Flyer

I started this post as a reply to the BA twitter thread but in writing it I see it is much more a VS issue.

The story does highlight a dangerous area for VS as well as BA.
An excellent article in Travelmole is here.

The "second point in the debate" raised in the 5th para is highly relevant to V-Flyer:

• identify an influencer effectively - someone active on V-flyer and/or similar sites
• monitoring their influencers - VIPS and those with high klout, kred and other scores
• more 'anonymous influencers' are harder to spot - reach (popularity), resonance (frequency) and relevance (authority) all matter.

People on this site and others are undoubtedly "influencers" particularly those who are active on multiple forums.

Does VS place too much reliance upon reaction of business customers and ignore the holiday customer? How often have we read comparisons between the LGW & LHR fleet offering and service?

While I believe VS does monitor this site and others, they do not react quickly to deal with an issue. They do not react in any "official" way to give a company response.

One reaction is that few would spend £600 to demand attention to an issue. Frankly £600 is small change compared to the full costs of a family holiday, particularly for UC users. £600 is very small change compared to the value of the time many of us are prepared to give to V-Flyer and other forums.

Many times we have seen issues raised on this site that eventually have become sources of loss to VS; lack of UC on A333 being an example. Very often we see major issues that seem to be ignored by VS strategists. A simple statement - an admission "we got it wrong - but we will do something about it" might have retained loyal customers that otherwise have been lost.

On some occasions (though rare) we have heard of individuals who have suffered poor customer service. Their stories are not good for VS, particularly when there is no official reply, explanation or apology.

While I appreciate that V-Flyer must remain to be seen as independent, that does not preclude official response on occasion. Some of us do recognise that particular members have positions within VS, sometimes senior, and we very much appreciate their "unofficial" input, but is it not time for some Official response?

Is this not time for VS to "Sharpen your game"

An interesting debate topic, thank-you. When I first joined the V-flyer community I admit I was in the throws of venting my spleen regarding some rather shoddy service on a VS flight and I expected (hoped!) that there would be some VS strategists 'monitors' of the forum - it is open source and one must always be mindful of that act whenever posting any articles. I had naturally, contacted VS Customer Services directly and did evenutally get an adequate, but not inspiring, response about 3 weeks later. In an 'instant' www world, 3 weeks is a frustratingly long wait for an invariably bland response so the idea that someone of influence may be monitoring other forums does have an appeal. Did I need an instant 'official' response on this V-flyer site? Probably not. I imagine the 'official' responses would be pretty non-comittal, and generic which would raise my BP even more!

"Does VS place too much reliance upon reaction of business customers and ignore the holiday customer? How often have we read comparisons between the LGW & LHR fleet offering and service?"

This did get my attention - I concur! I travel, at my own expense, to Mexico occasionally to support a small charity and was delighted when VS opened up the direct flight route to Cancun from LGW, reasonable value and friendly flight times. But, it was very apparant that VS treat all the pax on the LGW-CUN-LGW (VS093 / VS094), from checkin to arrival, as holiday travellers and the less than impressive level of service encountered is comensurate with bucket-and-spade airlines with punters who are less likely to be VS frequent / business flyers.

Anyway - I love logging on to V-flyer now and all the advice, tips and laughs are brilliant! VS take note (or maybe you already are...?)

This is an interesting topic indeed.

I had posted an issue on V-Flyer; not to expect that anything would necessarily be done about it, but to merely ask fellow V-Flyers for their knowledge. What I got was both knowledge and a contact from VS. I was more than happy.

These kinds of sites are good for the Airlines if they take on board (where possible) feedback, issues raised and any ideas.

The way I look at the Airline industry is (IMHO) the first priority should always be safety then making money. On the second point the way to make money is to provide a service that is over and above what other airlines are doing or is unique. VS have been unique in the past and in some aspects (CHs and CC) they still are but have lost some of their uniqueness, perhaps unavoidably through having to cost cut. However if/when they get back in the black I think VS are a force to be reckoned with. Bring back decent amenity kits, onboard masseuse etc.

Thats just my "nickels worth" of humble un-airline industry related opinion.

Some years ago I had a pretty big problem and as luck would have it my story was pocked up thanks to a very frequent flyer passing my woe to a VA staff member. It was sorted very quickly thanks to the v-flyers help. I took this more as a stroke of luck and kindness though. I would never think of "useing" the site to get my own way. I see it as a source of friendly community of Virgin enthusists rather than a pressure group.

Bill S wrote:
Many times we have seen issues raised on this site that eventually have become sources of loss to VS; lack of UC on A333 being an example. Very often we see major issues that seem to be ignored by VS strategists. A simple statement - an admission "we got it wrong - but we will do something about it" might have retained loyal customers that otherwise have been lost.

Lack of UC on the A330 was not ignored by anyone at VS and the installation of UC on the later deliveries was certainly nothing to do with any comments on V-flyer!

It was planned that the A330s would have UC but due to a number of issues (including getting regulatory clearance for the UCDS) the first 2 of the A330s did not have UC but VS took a deliberate decision to operate them as 2-class planes and install UC later - which is what it is about to do. All the other A330 deliveries came with UC (now whether that is the 'right' UCS is a different debate)

As to VS and social media there is a limit to what any company can do.

VS does not have an official 'lurker' on flyer-talk (though several other airlines do). Even BA has it's limits - e.g. only monitors its twatter account during UK office hours. At least people can post comments on the VS Facebook page - something that you cannot do with BA.

BA does have a flyer talk 'lurker' yet there are often appeals for people to go through the formal customer service channels rather than via the 'lurker'.

There are simply far too many social media outlets for any company to monitor let alone respond to.

That's not to say VS can't do better - it's FB page should be monitored and responded to 24/7 for example. I'd rather it did that well than several other social media outlets badly.

I've been a member of V-Flyer for a number of years and have, for the most part, found the forum a very useful source of information and informal advice. I enjoy trip reports and snippets of rumours relating to VAA and the improvements and deterioration in services being offered.

The optimist in me tries to believe VAA actively monitors the forum and uses it as a source of feedback to be considered in planning and marketing but I suspect the reality is quite different. My impression of the forum, and of other fora of which I am a member, is that a largely insignificant number of passengers actually participate and when compared with the total number of flying passengers VAA carries each year, the sample on here is so insignificant it may mostly be ignored, and with reasonable justification.

The standard 80:20 rule appears to apply, where <20% of forum members do >80% of the talking while conversely, >80% of members contribute to less than 20% of posts (this is not my scientific assertion, merely my broad perception based on seeing the same names pop-up day after day, after day...) In addition, there is IMHO, a disturbingly sycophantic trend in chastising anyone who dares to take the Good name of Virgin Atlantic in vain. I've read a number of posts where VAA have failed a customer's expectations and to my utter dismay, other members pile-in, praising the Good VAA and berating the dissatisfied customer as someone who was only looking for a freebie anyway. The distasteful judgements have sometimes left me wondering just how objective V-Flyer actually is, to the point it has discouraged me from posting trip reports, preferring instead, the Tripadvisor website, where there appears to be a more transparent exchange of opinions. In short, I have on occasion wondered if VAA are actually directly responsible for some of the retorts to posts that illustrate VAA in a less than favourable light.

rod10 wrote:My impression of the forum, and of other fora of which I am a member, is that a largely insignificant number of passengers actually participate and when compared with the total number of flying passengers VAA carries each year, the sample on here is so insignificant it may mostly be ignored, and with reasonable justification.

Whilst statistically speaking you are correct, forums such as this do represent an extremely small percentage of those that travel, I do not agree that there is a justification that they should therefore be ignored. For one they do represent an eclectic group of repeat passengers whose feedback on why they either keep flying with an airline or have chosen to fly with another provider would give useful insights as to which services are appreciated and which ones are failing.

rod10 wrote:The standard 80:20 rule appears to apply, where <20% of forum members do >80% of the talking while conversely, >80% of members contribute to less than 20% of posts (this is not my scientific assertion, merely my broad perception based on seeing the same names pop-up day after day, after day...)

Why do you think this has resulted? Merely looking for feedback out of curiosity and by no means is this a dig at what you have said.

rod10 wrote:In addition, there is IMHO, a disturbingly sycophantic trend in chastising anyone who dares to take the Good name of Virgin Atlantic in vain. I've read a number of posts where VAA have failed a customer's expectations and to my utter dismay, other members pile-in, praising the Good VAA and berating the dissatisfied customer as someone who was only looking for a freebie anyway. The distasteful judgements have sometimes left me wondering just how objective V-Flyer actually is, to the point it has discouraged me from posting trip reports, preferring instead, the Tripadvisor website, where there appears to be a more transparent exchange of opinions.

A shame that you feel this way.. a real shame in fact. Ever since joining last year I have encountered a fair share of people disagreeing with an opinion or line of thought that I have taken.. it does not mean I am going to write off the site for the actions of a few motivated posters passionate about their point of view. My advice would be to simply make the point or opinion and don't take it to heart if people disagree.. Sounds like you owe us some TRs

rod10 wrote:In short, I have on occasion wondered if VAA are actually directly responsible for some of the retorts to posts that illustrate VAA in a less than favourable light.

I wonder indeed Rod ii)

I know that VS take on board a lot of feedback whilst in the air... I have seen the CC actively approaching FFs and other flyers looking for 'small talk' which nearly always revolves around the flight experience thus far and how it compares to other flights taken recently. Personally speaking it is always good to give feedback at the source so if something is wrong they can go about fixing it or if something is being done right that service can be amplified.

Bill S wrote:Some of us do recognise that particular members have positions within VS, sometimes senior, and we very much appreciate their "unofficial" input, but is it not time for some Official response?

I would personally prefer this not to become a board for people to come to gain a response from VS directly.. whilst it is one thing to monitor it to provide a source a feedback, changing that to a 'complaints and compliments forum read by VS' will prove a mistake in my eyes. It's good to have this unofficial vent for staff and pax, n'est pas?

Apologies for the lengthy post guys

joeyc wrote:I would personally prefer this not to become a board for people to come to gain a response from VS directly.. whilst it is one thing to monitor it to provide a source a feedback, changing that to a 'complaints and compliments forum read by VS' will prove a mistake in my eyes. It's good to have this unofficial vent for staff and pax, n'est pas?

I agree totally with this.
also I think there is healthy debates on here, that I have been involved in too. We are not all going to agree all the time and I dont take it to heart if someone doesnt agree with my opinion. Thats the point of debate.

I joined this forum simply to be able to listen to others experiences (the jetsetters - not mentioning names; slinky, joey lol sorry if I missed anyone off HL?) and to read and learn about aviation and VS. Since being on this forum (for the past few months) I have learnt loads of useful information, had some good banter with other posters and have met some new people in real life lol.

There are a lot of regular passengers on here and Im sure that they may well share thoughts on here that someone at VS may feel is doable. Who knows. Also as Tontybear said there is only so much any airline can do with the kind of feedback they could potentially get from sites like this.

sycophantic and posts prompted by VS?

Sorry going to disagree there. If you really want to read sycophantic 'airline can do no wrong posts' then look at the BA board on Flyer Talk ! Even when it is clearly down to a BA problem there are still those that will still blame the poster! Let alone the 'if you make a spelling mistake then your whole post is invalid' brigade that lurks there.

If I criticise a post then it is because I believe the person has said something incorrect - that is not being sycophantic.

If I challenge a comment then it is usually to get more information from the poster about why they feel that way.


If / when VS gets things wrong then I will criticise them but I will defend them from what I perceive to be unfair or unreasonable complaints.

And I certainly don't want this board to become an alternative to people contacting VS customer services to get an issue resolved - though asking advice on things before someone does contact them is perfectly.

Great topic.

Taking VS for example, is it better to react to a facebook or twitter rant, or (as is usually the case) a considered post on V-Flyer?

My perception is that most posters on this forum are equally prepared to praise as to citicise. When criticism is given, it is, more often than not, accumpanied by suggestions on how to remedy the situation.

Surely, that has more value to VS than trying to mollify ill-considered rants?

In my own case, there are a number of factors that have influenced my decision to move from flying with VS to BA. These are apparent from my various trip reports and posts on a variety of topics.

Do I expect VS to respond directly to all of them? Certainly not.

However, and here is the rub, if themes emerge (consistency, household accounts etc), it would be in an airline's interests to respond to those themes.

No-one expects everything to be fixed at once, but visible recognition of issues and a positive message about how things will change would go a long way (but only if they are followed through are put in place, not just over-hyped promises).

One thing is for sure, the ever expanding WWW world is changing the way the world operates, and there is little or no understanding of how society and business need to adapt.

There was an interesting article I read the other day, that likened the current technological advances currently being made to a child being given powerful toys without the adult wisdom to use them to good effect - or something like that!

Could I just point out, as a key influencer on this site, that Bollinger Grande Annee would be far more suitable for UC pax than Lanson.

Oh alright then, I'd settle for a decent pen. And some Krug

Will let you know just how influential I have been when I get on my plane to JFK on Sunday...

rod10 wrote: who dares to take the Good name of Virgin Atlantic in vain. I've read a number of posts where VAA have failed a customer's expectations and to my utter dismay, other members pile-in, praising the Good VAA and berating the dissatisfied customer as someone who was only looking for a freebie anyway. The distasteful judgements have sometimes left me wondering just how objective V-Flyer actually is, to the point it has discouraged me from posting trip reports, preferring instead, the Tripadvisor website, where there appears to be a more transparent exchange of opinions. In short, I have on occasion wondered if VAA are actually directly responsible for some of the retorts to posts that illustrate VAA in a less than favourable light.

Examples?

Darren Wheeler wrote:

rod10 wrote: who dares to take the Good name of Virgin Atlantic in vain. I've read a number of posts where VAA have failed a customer's expectations and to my utter dismay, other members pile-in, praising the Good VAA and berating the dissatisfied customer as someone who was only looking for a freebie anyway. The distasteful judgements have sometimes left me wondering just how objective V-Flyer actually is, to the point it has discouraged me from posting trip reports, preferring instead, the Tripadvisor website, where there appears to be a more transparent exchange of opinions. In short, I have on occasion wondered if VAA are actually directly responsible for some of the retorts to posts that illustrate VAA in a less than favourable light.

Examples?

I am a totally independent. Non-VS employee who flies on holiday and not or business. I have been a member of this site for 3 years and have never seen an example of this. I have, however, gained immense knowledge that has helped me and my friends maximise our flights/holidays y)

ratechaser wrote:Could I just point out, as a key influencer on this site, that Bollinger Grande Annee would be far more suitable for UC pax than Lanson.

Oh alright then, I'd settle for a decent pen. And some Krug

Will let you know just how influential I have been when I get on my plane to JFK on Sunday...

Best post on V-Flyer for ages. Although your taste is suspect, vintage Pol Roger or even PR SWC is preferable.

Oh and to the point about sycophancy, two thoughts:

- This is a forum for people who like flying on VS geddit?.
- There is also a very healthy level of criticism when things don't go right - across a range of opinion from VS did well to VS did crap. In my book that constitutes a conversation between people with different views, aka normal.

I think there are many that will point out flaws in the service. I don't think there are many that will always jump to the defence of VS (though when we heard CC swear in response to us, it was suggested on here that maybe it was because we weren't very nice people and were rude to her first)
It is a much friendlier place than FlyerTalk though. Even if some people can be "to the point" in replies, i don't believe it's meant in a malicious way.

joeyc wrote:

rod10 wrote:The standard 80:20 rule appears to apply, where <20% of forum members do >80% of the talking while conversely, >80% of members contribute to less than 20% of posts (this is not my scientific assertion, merely my broad perception based on seeing the same names pop-up day after day, after day...)

Why do you think this has resulted?

I really don't know but on each forum I visit (travel, cars, medicine, and others) there are small clusters of members who appear to have an opinion on a very broad range of topics/posts, adding their comments to each on an almost daily basis. Their wisdom and experience can be extremely useful, and I'm grateful for their insightfulness, whilst not always agreeing with everything they post. As a digression, there is growing research about the effects of FAD (Facebook Addiction Disorder) and where people may, in the past, have said, "ok, lets catch up over coffee, a drink or dinner" they now broadcast their often mundane daily lives in near real-time, assuming their friends (or perhaps more accurately, digital acquaintances) really want to know if they're having an early night or had an omelette for dinner. I will try to find the article I read last year (I'm sure it was in The Lancet) asking if there is similarly a habitual, if not an addictive, use of fora by some members. It is an interesting hypothesis but I remain unconvinced based on a lack of sufficiently robust evidence.

Darren Wheeler wrote:

rod10 wrote: who dares to take the Good name of Virgin Atlantic in vain. I've read a number of posts where VAA have failed a customer's expectations and to my utter dismay, other members pile-in, praising the Good VAA and berating the dissatisfied customer as someone who was only looking for a freebie anyway. The distasteful judgements have sometimes left me wondering just how objective V-Flyer actually is, to the point it has discouraged me from posting trip reports, preferring instead, the Tripadvisor website, where there appears to be a more transparent exchange of opinions. In short, I have on occasion wondered if VAA are actually directly responsible for some of the retorts to posts that illustrate VAA in a less than favourable light.

Examples?

Certainly. I'm reminded of the recent post (in a TR?) about a customer travelling in PE who expressed his extreme dissatisfaction with the lack of choice of meals. Forum members jumped in to defend VAA. :0 VAA promote the PREMIUM aspects of the PE cabin and service and nowhere can I find a caveat indicating the standard of service is dependent on where the customer happens to sit in the Premium cabin... The operational difficulties of loading enough meals is of no interest to customers, nor should it be, and when customers pay for a service, and indeed a premium service, it ought to be as advertised - and nothing less.

slinky09 wrote:
Oh and to the point about sycophancy, two thoughts:

- This is a forum for people who like flying on VS geddit?.

I rest my case )

At least VS don't bloke / delete anyone who posts negative comments about them or their service via social media. BA do this.

mitchja wrote:At least VS don't bloke / delete anyone who posts negative comments about them or their service via social media. BA do this.

Do they? I have seen negative comments on BA Facebook, twitter and YouTube...

Yep, they deleted my comment about poor service I received at LHR from one of their and then blocked me from their FB page.

I never was a fan of BA, but that was well and truly the final straw.

mitchja wrote:At least VS don't bloke / delete anyone who posts negative comments about them or their service via social media. BA do this.

I think this highlights Rod10 point. There ar certain moderators who do not like VS being critisised and when all ales fails they play the BA card. This is wearing a bit thin as I now see more and more VS flyers including myself who are just as happy to use BA and if anything it's Ba who appear to be improving their service, fleet and growing their business.

PaulS wrote:

mitchja wrote:At least VS don't bloke / delete anyone who posts negative comments about them or their service via social media. BA do this.

I think this highlights Rod10 point. There ar certain moderators who do not like VS being critisised and when all ales fails they play the BA card. This is wearing a bit thin as I now see more and more VS flyers including myself who are just as happy to use BA and if anything it's Ba who appear to be improving their service, fleet and growing their business.

Examples?

tontybear wrote:

PaulS wrote:

mitchja wrote:At least VS don't bloke / delete anyone who posts negative comments about them or their service via social media. BA do this.

I think this highlights Rod10 point. There ar certain moderators who do not like VS being critisised and when all ales fails they play the BA card. This is wearing a bit thin as I now see more and more VS flyers including myself who are just as happy to use BA and if anything it's Ba who appear to be improving their service, fleet and growing their business.

Examples?

Haven't you just quoted an example of his point...?

mitchja wrote:Yep, they deleted my comment about poor service I received at LHR from one of their and then blocked me from their FB page.

I never was a fan of BA, but that was well and truly the final straw.

That is bad, but I have seen VS do it, they deleted some from from here's question, after saying they will go find an answer... Can't remember what it was about though.

We are a bit off-topic but I must admit I agree with rod10's observations. I've tried not to get involved too much of late, but there have been several threads where I've felt that an excessive defensiveness of VS has actually made the atmosphere rather unwelcome to posters -- particularly new posters. 'That's business' or 'those are the rules' -- too often, in my view, these have been offered as excuses to defend VS when it would have been more interesting for everyone if longstanding posters had fostered debate. You want examples? (and incidentally, just posting "Examples?" is a good example of the way in which the board has changed...) The thread about the flight stuck in Gander. Several threads about the DL hook-up. The recent thread about upgrades. If I could be bothered, I am sure we could find more!

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter? Of course not. My response has simply been to spend less time on v-flyer. That's life; things change. But I don't think we should pretend that the forums haven't changed. They have. When I began reading v-flyer, a relatively small group of posters dominated and that group included various mods and others, and it was a very welcoming and friendly place. Of late something has just ever so slightly slipped, and I see fewer narrative contributions from the mods, and slightly less tolerance of those who join to vent.

And there's the rub, I fear. I am sure that at some level there must be a correlation between the fortunes of an airline and the fortunes of a forum such as this. Perhaps that's the reality -- speaking as a firm fan of VS and a gold-card holder, I am nevertheless feeling that it is quite a while since VS did something that really got the blood pumping (in a good way!). And the more disappointment there is, particularly for a company that is so slick in its marketing, the more irritation we will find on forums such as this.

Anyway, let's look on the bright side -- we're a long way from the BA flyertalk board. But let's not race to the bottom, eh?

@at240
I am a newbie to this forum so don't really know how it's changed, however I do enjoy the debates and hope that you will participate more so as to bring your opinions to the discussion. I for one would welcome it.
With regards to posters defending VS- as slinky said up thread this is after all a forum where the majority of people like flying in VS and so may feel a need to stick up for VS.
I do think though we should be able to discuss in a balanced manner and not be offended if some posters don't feel that VS is all that. I for one am someone who lika VS but I also feel that they have slipped in some areas. For example the lack of amazing UC amenity kits and the onboard masseuse. I remember reading about those things on the VS website and looking forward to flying UC one day. When I finally got the chance those things had gone. Was I disappointed? Yes ofcourse but for me the main point was the flat bed. I also accept though that for the regular flyer they may demand more.
In terms of being influencers - I hope that we can make a difference as far as directly or indirectly conveying our grievances or ideas to VS
Anyway my point is I hope this forum remains a balanced and friendly forum.
From my experience it is friendly for sure. I am learning lots and hope I can constructively contribute. Also I enjoy the banter too and have met some of the faces behind the posts.