V-Flyer

Hi
A friend of mine recently flew back from St Lucia Upper Class and their flight was cancelled until the next day because of " No Fuel available " They have claimed compensation under the EU rules and have had the claim rejected as it was an extraordinary event that was out of their control!

Do you think this is correct or are they just being fobbed off?

Any advice would be appreciated

Steve

If i'm not mistaken there is a list of what constitutes Extraordinary Events under EU rules. I would imagine that No Fuel Available would be considered to be out of the airlines control, and as such an extraordinary event.

Hmmm. Not so sure.

Worth pursuing.

Have a look on Moneysaving experts forums, that's where I got my info from when I made a claim. Lots of info and what part of EU applies etc

They have sent a letter quoting category 2 of the EU regulations which is under the heading "War and Political Instability" it says that " Where the supply of fuel is limited or unavailable at short notice " I was not aware St Lucia is at War or Politically unstable!!

Do you think they are trying it on, and how can they take it further?

Steve

Following the events of January that kept G-VNYC there for over 3 weeks?

To me the regulations don't read as if the "Category" has primacy over the "Extraordinary Circumstance", i.e. shortage of fuel can only be a valid circumstance if in the context of political instability or war.

If VS normally fuel in St Lucia and purchase from a 3rd party and that 3rd party didn't come up with the goods on the day (hello my local Shell station) then assuming it is a valid reason I'm unsure how VS can be held responsible and accountable.

If, however, they picked the excuse out of a hat, had an alternative supplier but chose not to use them for reasons of price or couldn't remember the PIN for their credit card then things are different.

I find it extraordinary in this day in age that an airport can " run out of fuel " surely there should have been a back up contingency

747heaven wrote:I find it extraordinary in this day in age that an airport can " run out of fuel " surely there should have been a back up contingency

Contingency costs, and St Lucia is a small, poor, island dependent on a complex supply chain that can be disrupted by action beyond their control elsewhere in the Caribbean.

pjh wrote:

747heaven wrote:I find it extraordinary in this day in age that an airport can " run out of fuel " surely there should have been a back up contingency

Contingency costs, and St Lucia is a small, poor, island dependent on a complex supply chain that can be disrupted by action beyond their control elsewhere in the Caribbean.

Such as the storm that hit St Lucia at Christmas...

Darren Wheeler wrote:Such as the storm that hit St Lucia at Christmas...

Yes the storm that hit St Lucia caused lots of problems, three weeks before this flight ... now you could argue that VS knew about that and had plenty of time to prepare contingencies, and didn't, therefore it was under their control.

Surely the aircraft would have arrived with enough fuel for a divert, so it could have took off and refuelled say at Barbados or another near island.

PaulS wrote:Surely the aircraft would have arrived with enough fuel for a divert, so it could have took off and refuelled say at Barbados or another near island.

Yes but to take off again it'd have to again have enough fuel to divert to another airfield (onwards from where its flying to) along without however much extra flying time needed in reserve - so would likely have needed more fuel before leaving to meet this requirement.

duggy83 wrote:

PaulS wrote:Surely the aircraft would have arrived with enough fuel for a divert, so it could have took off and refuelled say at Barbados or another near island.

Yes but to take off again it'd have to again have enough fuel to divert to another airfield (onwards from where its flying to) along without however much extra flying time needed in reserve - so would likely have needed more fuel before leaving to meet this requirement.

Barbados is 25 minutes away, and plus the fuel for taxiing, agreed with your point, the plane must have been bone dry !

pjh wrote:

747heaven wrote:I find it extraordinary in this day in age that an airport can " run out of fuel " surely there should have been a back up contingency

Contingency costs, and St Lucia is a small, poor, island dependent on a complex supply chain that can be disrupted by action beyond their control elsewhere in the Caribbean.

That's fair enough but for all the years I lived in the Caribbean I never heard of that happening, things must have been tight. If Hewanorra airport was struggling, then Vigie for the smaller planes bust have been in the same boat

747heaven wrote:

pjh wrote:

747heaven wrote:I find it extraordinary in this day in age that an airport can " run out of fuel " surely there should have been a back up contingency

Contingency costs, and St Lucia is a small, poor, island dependent on a complex supply chain that can be disrupted by action beyond their control elsewhere in the Caribbean.

That's fair enough but for all the years I lived in the Caribbean I never heard of that happening, things must have been tight. If Hewanorra airport was struggling, then Vigie for the smaller planes bust have been in the same boat

I defer to your greater knowledge of the caribbean economy as a resident than I as a simple tourist. I do remember the last time we went (2 year back) our driver trying to find a petrol station and having great difficulty finding one with any fuel.

And anyhow, we're all just speculating at the moment...

Let's

Not at all mate, every point has its merits, and I like you would to like to find out more.

Someone mentioned storms and when small countries like St Lucia get battered they do get cut off

Thanks for all your replies it is really appreciated. They initially said the flight would be delayed by 3 hours, then cancelled it at short notice.

On a separate note, They were travelling Upper for the first time and on their honeymoon. when they checked in Virgin had downgraded one of them to PE due to overbooking. The FSM was really good and allowed her partner to dine and have a few drinks in the UC cabin, she also gave him a nice bottle of champagne to take home. They have been offered 80k miles as compensation for the downgrade

Thanks again,

Steve

stevedaley wrote:Thanks for all your replies it is really appreciated. They initially said the flight would be delayed by 3 hours, then cancelled it at short notice.

On a separate note, They were travelling Upper for the first time and on their honeymoon. when they checked in Virgin had downgraded one of them to PE due to overbooking. The FSM was really good and allowed her partner to dine and have a few drinks in the UC cabin, she also gave him a nice bottle of champagne to take home. They have been offered 80k miles as compensation for the downgrade

Thanks again,

Steve

They are entitled to compensation for the involuntary downgrade under the EU regulations - that isn't even in question. They are due 75% of the cost of the ticket due to the downgrade. This should have been paid very quickly in cash. I had the same situation with Virgin last year, they quickly paid up when I contacted them, go through the FB team, they expedited the claim and put me in contact with the correct dept very quickly,

The delay compensation is another matter and could take longer to pursue if they believe they have a chance of proving Virgin were at fault then they should continue with it.

Interesting that VS don't mention the downgrade compensation on their page listing PAX rights under EU 2621/2004. That section is missing. ISTBC but I think you they should also be entitled to the 75% refund even though they have accepted the FC miles.

Not that I'm casting aspersions, but could the 80k miles have been covertly offered instead of the refund?

They probably just hope that by offering a sweetener, you'll be satisfied and won't consider pursuing it any further.

I imagine they rely on the fact that the vast majority of pax won't know about the EU compensation, let alone have the inclination to go through the hassle of claiming it.

80k miles is probably enough to make the average passenger think they've got decent recompense - after all they'd cost £1200 if you were to buy them but of course they cost VS a lot less than having to pay out cash.

Bear in mind that VS now has an entire "EU Claims Department" to deal with these issues.

Now, do we think the objectives of that department are...

a) to pay out as quickly as possible, any amount due to the passenger under the broad framework of the regulation - allowing customers to be satisfied in the shortest amount of time?

or

b) to spend hours and hours finding ways to wriggle out of each and every case, looking for loopholes and fobbing people off with measly offers of mileage in order to avoid opening up the company bank account?


Hmmm...

Bretty wrote:Interesting that VS don't mention the downgrade compensation on their page listing PAX rights under EU 2621/2004. That section is missing. ISTBC but I think you they should also be entitled to the 75% refund even though they have accepted the FC miles.

Not that I'm casting aspersions, but could the 80k miles have been covertly offered instead of the refund?

Yes, but the regulations are very clear for involuntary downgrades, so regardless of what VS have or try to offer, if you are involuntary downgraded you are entitled to a 75% refund.

It all smells a bit iffy to me. Surely the airport would have known they were out of fuel and let inbound aircraft know so they could divert and collect fuel prior to arrival. Suffered at similar fate myself with a VS flight where heavy winds meant we didn't have enough fuel to make LGW with a hold so diverted to CWL for fuel. Cost our family over £800 to rebooked missed connections to MAN due to arriving five hours late.

Hmmm - this raises an interesting point; for St Lucia a good proportion of passengers will be on a VH (or other company) package, and the cost of the flight probably isn't broken out - so how do you "value" the upgrade / downgrade element. VH do offer fixed price upgrades, so that might make it a little easier I guess.