V-Flyer

Sunday Times business section reporting Little Red to close.

HOWEVER, it then says CK says that LR is still in its growth phase, but its looks at it through the same lens as the rest of the business.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/bus ... 455799.ece

To read article if link doesnt work, google "Little Red to close, sunday times"

David

I would hope this is sloppy reporting and someone is putting 2 and 2 together and getting 3 after reading about the route changes, but articles like this cant bring much confidence for forward bookings

David

David wrote:I would hope this is sloppy reporting and someone is putting 2 and 2 together and getting 3 after reading about the route changes, but articles like this cant bring much confidence for forward bookings

David

Inclined to agree - but for the Sunday Times to run this as its lead business story would suggest more

buns

Can the slots be redeployed to long haul routes once the first three years pass?

Interesting article...

LR has been performing well by all accounts so would be really surprised if this was true, but after this last week, anything and everything is clearly up for review.

In the last week I have taken two LR flights with loads in excess of 110 with the majority connecting to/from VS long haul flights.

If this becomes a reality it would leave me with one choice, to transfer my weekly flights to/from LHR back to BA which doesn't even worth thinking about.

Jon

LR doesn't really fit the new strategy though- I think Mr Keeper and the DL boys don't see themselves as the thorn in BAs side now but something rather different.

Can anyone remind me what would happen to the slots if they stop say next spring.

tugpilot wrote:
Can anyone remind me what would happen to the slots if they stop say next spring.

I believe they can't be used for transatlantic flights, only a few specific UK and European flights so they revert back to the IAG group but I stand to be corrected. (but think the MAN slots are different )

David

Sure I read somewhere that the VLR MAN slots are VS's to do with as they choose, hence why VS have been switching between 3 or 4 flights a day on that route.

I'm guessing (going off my experience often seeing poor loads), that's the route that's not really working for VS anyway.

mitchja wrote:Sure I read somewhere that the VLR MAN slots are VS's to do with as they choose, hence why VS have been switching between 3 or 4 flights a day on that route.

I'm guessing (going off my experience often seeing poor loads), that's the route that's not really working for VS anyway.

A crew member on my EDI-LHR flight a couple of weeks ago told me while EDI is doing best in terms of total pax numbers, MAN has the highest proportion of long-haul connecting pax.

As I understand it, the MAN slots are VS's to do with as they please but the EDI & ABZ slots are heavily restricted. VS would lose them if it gave them up in the first 3 years (and we're only 18 months in) - but even then IAG or whoever else took them on could only use them on four other routes. After 3 years the restrictions become less onerous and VS would "own" them but they could apparently still only be used for Europe plus Moscow (which it couldn't fly to anyway), Cairo or Riyadh. Not TATL.

Very sad if true. It's a good little service. But things are clearly changing and changing fast under DL and returning to profitability is obviously the number one priority. True, ditching LR early would mean sacrificing 9 slots but if they're not slots that VS/DL could use for long haul flights, that's no great loss for them if LR's losing money.

The MAN slots, on the other hand, would be very useful - they alone would no doubt justify ditching the entire LR network. 0850, 1225, 1645 and 2010 are all perfectly feasible US departure times ...

gumshoe wrote:The MAN slots, on the other hand, would be very useful - they alone would no doubt justify ditching the entire LR network. 0850, 1225, 1645 and 2010 are all perfectly feasible US departure times ...

Except these are not LH slots, they're domestic or European in terms of allocation (previously leased to Air Cyprus). So VS would be better selling them IMO.

It'll be a shame for LR to fold, but only VS knows whether the connection traffic is worth the effort, as stand alone O&D routes I can't see them ever really turning a profit.

slinky09 wrote:Except these are not LH slots, they're domestic or European in terms of allocation (previously leased to Air Cyprus).

I was under the impression the MAN slots can be used by VS on any route for which it has traffic rights. Isn't DL currently using one of them for SEA (the lunchtime one, which reverts back to MAN next month)?

Only the ABZ & EDI slots are restricted I thought.

gumshoe wrote:

slinky09 wrote:Except these are not LH slots, they're domestic or European in terms of allocation (previously leased to Air Cyprus).

I was under the impression the MAN slots can be used by VS on any route for which it has traffic rights. Isn't DL currently using one of them for SEA (the lunchtime one, which reverts back to MAN next month)?

Only the ABZ & EDI slots are restricted I thought.

Well you may be right, I didn't think so however since these were T1 slots. Also, the fourth was on loan from DL not the other way around.

Was looking to book some VLR flights for next year and I noticed the MAN VLR flights are back down to 3 again for next summer.

slinky09 wrote:Well you may be right, I didn't think so however since these were T1 slots. Also, the fourth was on loan from DL not the other way around.

Ah yes, you're right about the 4th slot, I'd forgotten that.

There's an interesting discussion going on here, where I saw the info about the other 3 MAN slots - may be wrong though I guess: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/6174181/

Does the Sunday Times article give any indication about timescale? I haven't got a subscription so can only see the first few lines.

See post #27 in this Flyer Talk thread where some one posts that they had been told that staff had been given letters saying LR would run for 5 years not the initial 3.

And I had seen a similar comment on another board (and not by the same person)

I wonder if Virgin could do a slot swap with an airline such as Saudi Arabian or Egypt Air so that the remedy slots are still being used following all restrictions, and VS now have a pair of slots that are not covered by such restrictions? Did that make sense?

I wonder if some journo has been told about the move from T1 to T2, gone 1 + 2 = P45

Seems rather coincidental with the move in just 3 days.

I think VS needs to come out and say something about this, uncertainly over LR is not helping. I am due to fly with them again in October and November, will it still operate?!

Staggering bad pr from VS point of view with the network changes last week a press release on Little Red may have been due in a few weeks?

Surely if there was the intention to close LR it would have been done during its changes to the network last week?

Most eastbound l-h traffic ex MAN is already routing via the Gulf with the ME3 or via AMS or CDG with AF/KL; so, once westbound l-h ex MAN can feed itself with VS or DL direct flights to JFK and ATL as well as established VS originating traffic to MCO, BGI (in summer) and LAS, why not redeploy 2 or 3 MAN-LHR slots to EDI and/or ABZ (where there's still room to grow, minimise losses on the deal with EI)and make BA continue to compete for l-h TATL pax from the UK regions?

Having finally read the full article in the paper (courtesy of the ever-excellent Escape lounge at MAN - I'm not paying for a Murdoch rag!), it appears to be very light on facts and very heavy on padding.

No attributable quotes - just a vague reference to "senior aviation industry sources" who say "it is set to be closed as part of a review led by Craig Kreeger".

So it may be true, or it may not. Maybe it's as simple as the Aer Lingus wet lease contract is due for renewal, and VS have told them they're not renewing, prompting someone at EI to put 2 and 2 together and make 5. Other partners are available though ...

I'm on the VS3044 in an hour, will see if the crew know anything!

Could VS take the operation in house?

Wouldn't risk it in my opinion taking it in house, unless DL could offer some backing to it, aircraft etc. This way they keep options open to cut it whenever. The EI contract runs out in Feb 15 doesn't it? In which case I would suspect services may cease then if they do.

I have just got off the LHR MAN. The crew say they have called VS who say it is not true but they think it is a little strange to say that little red will close.

Would be a shame if they do go some of the best flights I have been on have been little reds.

(Waves to gumshoe upstairs!)

gumshoe wrote:Having finally read the full article in the paper (courtesy of the ever-excellent Escape lounge at MAN - I'm not paying for a Murdoch rag!), it appears to be very light on facts and very heavy on padding.

No attributable quotes - just a vague reference to "senior aviation industry sources" who say "it is set to be closed as part of a review led by Craig Kreeger".

So it may be true, or it may not. Maybe it's as simple as the Aer Lingus wet lease contract is due for renewal, and VS have told them they're not renewing, prompting someone at EI to put 2 and 2 together and make 5. Other partners are available though ...

I'm on the VS3044 in an hour, will see if the crew know anything!

Closing (EI-operated) Little Red because it's no longer needed wouldn't constitute a U-turn anyway. As for the article (whose cred is already strained by claiming Craig Kreeger is ex-DL), which of these statements sounds more credible, authoritative and rational in the context of a VS/DL joint venture:

1) "senior aviation industry sources said it was set to be closed as part of a review..." or

2) "Virgin Atlantic said...Little Red must deliver on performance, potential or strategic contribution. Little Red is still in its growth phase; so it's too early to comment on these criteria"?