V-Flyer

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/virg ... -haul-3508

Interesting.. and might be tied into the VAIL AOC that was set up for 2 x 330's recently. This artivle suggest second hnad 330's from Delta with only a W/Y config like the original batch of 330's to counter Norwegian at LGW.

Very interesting, although I'm a little confused. If they have said it won't be a 'sub-brand' but will consist of economy/premium economy using delta a330's (lower running cost) then essentially isn't this just Virgin gaining a few more used a330s at low cost? Very different to them starting a low cost carrier, no? Personally I wouldn't use a VS budget Long Haul carrier so I hope this doesn't turn into that but fingers crossed for same service and new routes from gatwick!

Yes the article is a little confusing - on the one hand it says any new company would retain the Virgin brand but on the other it says they're wary of diluting the VS brand and they're not envisioning a sub-brand.

Which suggests, if there's any truth in it, a stand-alone operation carrying the Virgin name but not "Virgin Atlantic XXX".

LGW-NYC and LGW-ATL (for DL connections) seem likely new route contenders? And possibly move at least some of the MCO flights over from VS mainline.

Interesting that it's a Delta spokesperson speaking for Virgin - as in it will be a Virgin brand (using DL metal). Let's wait and see.

I wonder if this might not be a copy of BA's WW vs MF contract setup taken to the extreme.

I can see Delta transferring some 330s to a special purpose vehicle like the VAIL setup and issuing new (cheaper) contracts for the flight crew to keep costs down. Now you take it a step further and throw in some high-density seating and a 'charge-for-everything' mentality and you're done.

I'm sure the price-sensitive family holiday holiday buyer would lap it up - it is a business after all.

Plus remember a lot of business travellers are bound by their corporate travel policy to buy the cheapest fare. If that's now Norwegian from London to the US, VS automatically lose out on good business.

gumshoe wrote:Plus remember a lot of business travellers are bound by their corporate travel policy to buy the cheapest fare. If that's now Norwegian from London to the US, VS automatically lose out on good business.

Surely it can't just be fare, they must have a modicum of basic facilities, hold luggage, some food, and maybe some alcoholic drinks. I did some calculation on that actual basis versus a Y VS sale fare, and Norwegian is in same price range. Do Nowegian have IFE?

Are businesses seriously expecting their employees to be sitting with hand luggage at their feet (when overheads are full, because everybody is squeezing in overheads), in a 12 hour unfed, IFE free, sober flight?

It strikes me as the Norwegian business model of long haul "low service airline" is almost hellish....

Norwegian certainly seem to be spreading their wings, especially in long haul, rumors of even basing a 787 at BHX for American ops.

Smid wrote:

gumshoe wrote:Plus remember a lot of business travellers are bound by their corporate travel policy to buy the cheapest fare. If that's now Norwegian from London to the US, VS automatically lose out on good business.

Surely it can't just be fare, they must have a modicum of basic facilities, hold luggage, some food, and maybe some alcoholic drinks. I did some calculation on that actual basis versus a Y VS sale fare, and Norwegian is in same price range. Do Nowegian have IFE?

Are businesses seriously expecting their employees to be sitting with hand luggage at their feet (when overheads are full, because everybody is squeezing in overheads), in a 12 hour unfed, IFE free, sober flight?

It strikes me as the Norwegian business model of long haul "low service airline" is almost hellish....

I can confirm at least one corporate travel policy (ours) in theory demands that you take the lowest cost flight. You can work around it in terms of schedule and avoiding layovers, and buy hold luggage, but they do not have any standards in respect of IFE, being fed or having any access to any alcohol. Their "approved" list is more likely to be based on destination availability and flight frequency.

pjh wrote:

Smid wrote:I can confirm at least one corporate travel policy (ours) in theory demands that you take the lowest cost flight. You can work around it in terms of schedule and avoiding layovers, and buy hold luggage, but they do not have any standards in respect of IFE, being fed or having any access to any alcohol. Their "approved" list is more likely to be based on destination availability and flight frequency.

Yeah, I know the practicalities and the pure and simple 'lowest cost whatever'. But the reality is that the likes of these low service airlines survive mostly on short haul routes, and when you're faced with 12 hours on a plane in such circumstances, well, it's horrible....

I also know of some corporate travel policies which allow business class for 6 hour and longer flights, that at least kind of accepts the reality that you're not just slabs of meat being posted at the lowest cost...

Smid wrote:

pjh wrote:

Smid wrote:I can confirm at least one corporate travel policy (ours) in theory demands that you take the lowest cost flight. You can work around it in terms of schedule and avoiding layovers, and buy hold luggage, but they do not have any standards in respect of IFE, being fed or having any access to any alcohol. Their "approved" list is more likely to be based on destination availability and flight frequency.

Yeah, I know the practicalities and the pure and simple 'lowest cost whatever'. But the reality is that the likes of these low service airlines survive mostly on short haul routes, and when you're faced with 12 hours on a plane in such circumstances, well, it's horrible....

I also know of some corporate travel policies which allow business class for 6 hour and longer flights, that at least kind of accepts the reality that you're not just slabs of meat being posted at the lowest cost...

Some do, but not ours.

I can also attest to the "lowest fare only" corporate travel policy. My ex-employer had this policy and it was enforced big-time. Bizarrely, they would enforce the lowest fare, but allow you to claim for checked baggage / meals etc, so by the time you added these on there was next to nothing in it.

Similar policy on rail travel - standard class only, even when two advance First singles came in cheaper than the standard return (with the added benefit of free refreshments, so no additional claim for those).

So yes, a "low cost Virgin" on certain routes would sweep up some of the corporate business (at the lower cost end) quite easily. Orlando is not just a holiday destination either - it's pretty big for conventions too.

Smid wrote:Do Nowegian have IFE?

They do, yes.

As for it being "hellish", seat pitch in economy is 31-32" - so the same as VS & BA - and in Premium it's 46" - considerably better. And they claim not to charge extra for exit rows.

The only difference is you have to pay for things you get included on BA/VS - luggage, food, drinks etc. But they're available if you want them and presumably most firms would allow employees to expense them.

pjh wrote:I can confirm at least one corporate travel policy (ours) in theory demands that you take the lowest cost flight. You can work around it in terms of schedule and avoiding layovers, and buy hold luggage, but they do not have any standards in respect of IFE, being fed or having any access to any alcohol. Their "approved" list is more likely to be based on destination availability and flight frequency.

Do we work for the same employer?

Oddly, having checked our GDS (which is Amadaeus based) there's no sign of Norwegian anywhere in it but it does show other LCCs such as Wizz, EasyJet and similar.

I for one would be pleased to see a low cost transatlantic service with PE seating to the USA and possibly Caribbean/West Indies. Norwegian aren't that cheap and by the time you add in a suitcase the price is similar to economy on BA or Virgin a lot of the time.

I fly EasyJet a lot and like the fact I can pick and choose what I want. I'm not bothered about having alcohol on a long haul flight (particularly on the return leg when I will step off the plane and into my car) but I am bothered about IFE and I want one or more suitcases in the hold, depending on where I'm going and how long for. I can take my own food with me if I want to.

My ideal on this would be you buy the seat with handbaggae and soft drinks only. I can then do what Air Asia and Vietjet do and pre-order food (if I want it), pre-book one or more bags in the hold (20kg, 25kg, 30kg bands at maybe £20, £25 and £30 per bag) and I'm happy to skip the extras that a full service offers except for the IFE. Forget the priority bags, it only saves 5 minutes in my experience or offer it as an extra for say £3 per checked bag (available to any class). I imagine with the right business model then PE from Gatwick to NYC before bags etc could be as low as £525 per seat, possibly less. Economy should be around £375, again without all the extras.

I hope it happens, I'll book it. But I'll be in the premium seating......not down the back.

Tallguy wrote:I for one would be pleased to see a low cost transatlantic service with PE seating to the USA and possibly Caribbean/West Indies. Norwegian aren't that cheap and by the time you add in a suitcase the price is similar to economy on BA or Virgin a lot of the time.

That's exactly my point (and why I don't use the term "low cost carrier", I've flown such airlines as flybe which I regularly paid through the nose for without hand luggage), they're not that much cheaper.

But it seems what I've got from this thread is they are just airlines which strips down to the bottom line in order to take advantage of simplistic corporate booking policies...

I don't personally fly with my work, and if they were forced to, I'd be demanding business class, or be paid for the hours I travel for them (contractor, so not cheap). Consequently, my clients have never felt the need to send me anywhere.....

gumshoe wrote:Yes the article is a little confusing - on the one hand it says any new company would retain the Virgin brand but on the other it says they're wary of diluting the VS brand and they're not envisioning a sub-brand.

Its also a little strange from a business point of view - if a competitor is hurting you, you don't discuss your plan of attack, in public (that might happen some time next year ...) ???

David

Well quite David.

All it does is confirm that VS is worried about Norwegian's rapid growth into its market.

As, clearly, is BA given its decision to restart its LGW-JFK route. And of course Norwegian also has the advantage of a large and growing European network at LGW that's no doubt feeding connecting traffic into its TATL routes.

Kraken wrote:I can also attest to the "lowest fare only" corporate travel policy. My ex-employer had this policy and it was enforced big-time. Bizarrely, they would enforce the lowest fare, but allow you to claim for checked baggage / meals etc, so by the time you added these on there was next to nothing in it.

When I worked for my previous employer - an investment bank - about half way through my tenure they revoked business class travel privileges for flights within Europe. However they - unlike my current employer - still purchased flexible tickets in economy. So the standard operating procedure was to buy an upgrade at the airport and charge it to "general expenses" as it was rarely figure that exceeded some people's lunch bill.

stuart_f wrote:Do we work for the same employer?

Is CWT the corporate travel provider?

Smid wrote:
I don't personally fly with my work, and if they were forced to, I'd be demanding business class, or be paid for the hours I travel for them (contractor, so not cheap). Consequently, my clients have never felt the need to send me anywhere.....

Unfortunately as an employee I get what I'm given. I do, however, tend not to raise my hand when far flung projects are passed my way.

pjh wrote:

stuart_f wrote:Do we work for the same employer?

Is CWT the corporate travel provider?

Ours is HRG but the wording of the travel policy is eerily familiar.

My contact tells me the story is not correct and someone from Delta will be getting large boot inserted sideways in a rather painful place. There will also be an updated press release at some point.

This is getting interesting...

Darren,

Are you able to get the full story on this from your contact please? If this circle goes ahead at the right prices, rest assured I will be going to NYC and San Fran regularly......

Thanks.