VS's Future at MAN

I agree with Bobby_Ham.

I don’t see VS operating from MAN to another Florida airport, other than Miami at a stretch (and presumably to attract connecting passengers from India).

Code: Select allStill think Virgin are missing out to the North of London with not providing a daily MAN/TPA run. We have been asking for this route for a few years now, and with all the A330/300 aircraft that will soon be surplus to the London hub, we up North would be more than happy to take a few. Tampa in my opinion is being neglected and will I am sure get snapped up from under Virgins nose if they don't grab it. I don't want to go to Orlando or ATL/TPA route. even twice weekly would be better than nothing.

Can't see Virgin doing this but i could see maybe TUI or Thomas Cook doing 3 weekly or something.

Well I think it's two fold, Form a Manchester Airport perspective they have under invested in terminal and airport infrastructure over the past 10 years. Now they are playing catch up to put the terminal capacitate more in line with the runway capacity of 55 million. Pier 1 of the new T2X is almost ready to go and should open in Q1 of 2019.

Form a Virgin Atlantic perspective thats a lot of room to grow. more flights and destinations will get added but the 787 issues have slowed that growth down. New routes to Washington Tampa and Seattle could happen. I also think it's impotent to point out that airport's like Tampa subsidise new airlines for the first 2 years to help establish a new routes. I do feel that previous VS management have missed opportunities like Hong Kong and Beijing from MAN.

The clubhouse Will definitely happen is just a case of where. 2 possible locations exist in the new T2X the the first above the new food and retail complex on Level 5, although I can see that being reserved for a new escape lounge, or in the yet to be built pier 3 above the gates. Note Emirates has requested for lounge spaces in this pier. It is unclear what pier Virgin will use in the new T2X as the US customs pre clearance project has all gone a bit quiet.

I do feel that previous VS management have missed opportunities like Hong Kong and Beijing from MAN.
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I’m not sure about this. The new international routes (exc Europe) which have been successful have been where there is a level of connecting traffic in addition to Point to Point routings. This applies to the Middle East carriers as well as Cathay and Singapore. This is the plan with the new Ethiopian route as well.

I assume that VS have a good level of connections on the JFK and ATL flights as well.

The thing that the Middle East carriers have proved is that there is a demand for business class seats which hopefully VS will consider when deciding which aircraft to base at Manchester in the future.

[mitchja]

We are not really going to be able to take VS expansion seriously at MAN unit they increase all their flights to daily.

Flying to the US just 3 or 4 times a week and / or only operating seasonal services is no use what so ever for corporate travellers.

Also, whilst there are many onward connections from ATL and JFK using DL. I usually find that it's still way way cheaper starting at LHR than MAN when doing that.

I was looking at a flight last night in Upper to the US via ATL next June. £4K from MAN or £1.6K from LHR though I realise the much lower capacity in Upper Class is the reason for that with VS still using 744's at MAN.

I think VS's opportunities at MAN are necessarily going to be focused on the USA. I could see some eastbound operations (e.g. DEL - to tie in with Jet routing India-USA traffic) and some southbound traffic (e.g. JNB - a strong seasonal market) but that's about it.

Looking at the market to the USA - and on this point Mitchja hits the nail on the head. The caveat to what I'm about to say is that much of this is likely the way it is because of the current fleet issues, and hopefully the resolution to this will allow VS to make the decisions I think they would otherwise make. However...

ATL and JFK should both be capable of supporting an A333/332 on a daily basis all year. Perhaps in the summer JFK is capable of supporting an additional 3-4 weekly rotations (to 10-11 weekly) assuming an all A330 operation. Each should benefit from Jet's operation to BOM and a possible future service to DEL.

LAS, MCO and BGI are fine for now, the question arises how they will replace the B744 capacity when they are eventually retired. I'm sceptical VS will base 1/2 A35K at MAN, so another solution may be required (the A332 strikes me as a good aircraft for a 4/5x weekly LAS service).

LAX and BOS are a litmus test for VS at MAN. At present, they are short seasonal services (May - September I think) at low frequency (3x weekly). BOS in particular should be capable of supporting a daily service, but I question whether this is a route DL could look to utilise a B752 to offer a daily service over a longer season (accepting this is against current policy for VS to do the lift at MAN). LAX is an interesting development - it should be more capable than SFO of turning into a 5x weekly service and over a long season. I don't see it becoming daily for some time (they may need to beat TCX off the route first).

Thinking about potential future routes, I think DEL is (or should be) firmly in VS's sights. With Jet looking to increase BOM to daily, getting a daily flight into DEL should be a major target for Jet and VS. It not only can support the large O&D market, but also supports VS's expansion on MAN-USA allowing longer seasons and more frequencies (i.e. it is a symbiotic relationship). The likes of SFO will (I expect) be rumoured to return if VS expands, together with MIA, but we'll see if it comes to pass.

I could see VS operate an 8 aircraft base at MAN in S20. Replacing 2x B744 with A330, with another couple of A330 added for capacity and frequency reasons. I could see the following indicative schedule:

B744 - daily MCO
B744 - MCO/BGI/MCO/MCO/BGI/MCO/MCO
A333 - daily ATL
A333 - daily JFK
A332 - LAX/BOS/LAX/BOS/LAX/JFK/BOS
A332 - JFK/LAS/BOS/LAX/BOS/LAX/spare
A332 - daily DEL
A332 - BOS/LAS/JFK/LAS/JFK/LAS/spare


This schedule permits the following indicative network routes (weekly frequency in brackets) MCO (12); ATL (7); JFK (11); BGI (2); LAX (5); BOS (6) LAS (3); DEL (7). I think slack could be found in the scheduling for a 4th LAS service and perhaps a 7th BOS but that looks to me to be a pretty good network.

Key to much of this is getting the infrastructure set up to differentiate VS from the competition at MAN. Getting the clubhouse right (I've also heard it is intended to be on the upper level of one of the new piers) is a major piece of that jigsaw. Happily, the new terminal extension provides a perfect opportunity to get the infrastructure right.

Obviously if VS/DL end up purchasing FlyBe, this should allow VS to significantly expend their UK/EU feed into MAN which could accelerate any plans they have.

Code: Select allI'm sceptical VS will base 1/2 A35K at MAN

VS said that they're going to be basing the A350-1000 at every UK hub (Manchester, Heathrow, Gatwick).
When the 747s get retired what aircraft do you think will operate the seasonal MCO flights from Belfast and Glasgow?
Also, with these new A350-1000 coming, will they be expanding their fleet or keeping it the same replacing older aircraft?

Hi Jake

I’m afraid I don’t have an answer to your points and I have no evidence (it’s just a hunch) that VS will want to base their newest and most modern aircraft at LHR.

I fully accept that this is contrary to VS’s public statements and I would be delighted to be wrong!

I agree that, if the A35K is not used on the MAN/LGW-MCO run, there is a capacity gap within the fleet. The A330/B789 fleet are too small for these routes - both MAN and LGW could likely fill three daily rotations. That is obviously inefficient. In that event I’ve speculated previously whether the A346 would be a suitable stopgap pending (say) a top up order of A35K but who knows.

Bit of a bump to MAN-JFK and ATL for next winter.

Manchester – Atlanta eff 27OCT19 Boeing 747-400 operates 5 weekly flights, instead of previously filed 3 weekly
VS109 MAN1040 – 1450ATL 744 x24
VS110 ATL1800 – 0650+1MAN 744 x24

Manchester – New York JFK eff 27OCT19 A330-200 operates 7 weekly, instead of previously filed 3 weekly
VS127 MAN1300 – 1530JFK 332 D
VS128 JFK1855 – 0620+1MAN 332 D

Slightly surprised about the fleet utilisation (I’m not sure what that means for number of based units and/or whether this might signal a easing of the fleet pressure), but at least the current upward trajectory continues.

Hopefully we will see more positive changes on these and other routes for next winter, summer 2020 and beyond.

Merry Christmas to all.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-21dec18/

Happy with that, definitely a step in the right direction for Manchester.

Bit of a bump to MAN-JFK and ATL for next winter.

Manchester – Atlanta eff 27OCT19 Boeing 747-400 operates 5 weekly flights, instead of previously filed 3 weekly
VS109 MAN1040 – 1450ATL 744 x24
VS110 ATL1800 – 0650+1MAN 744 x24

Manchester – New York JFK eff 27OCT19 A330-200 operates 7 weekly, instead of previously filed 3 weekly
VS127 MAN1300 – 1530JFK 332 D
VS128 JFK1855 – 0620+1MAN 332 D

Slightly surprised about the fleet utilisation (I’m not sure what that means for number of based units and/or whether this might signal a easing of the fleet pressure), but at least the current upward trajectory continues.

Hopefully we will see more positive changes on these and other routes for next winter, summer 2020 and beyond.

Merry Christmas to all.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-21dec18/

Good to see JFK reverting back to year-round daily services. It’ll be interesting to hear loadings as the 747’s I took back in November had almost 400 passengers on, though I’m assuming demand for Upper to JFK is greater?

In any case, fingers crossed the planned schedule doesn’t get changed too much as the constant changes being filed last year wasn’t helpful and I was caught out by this.

Hi All

The news of the past few days opens up the playbook of opportunities for VS and MAN, with the following passages jumping out to me from the press release:

"Deliver more choice to customers by linking UK regions and Ireland to Virgin Atlantic’s extensive long-haul network through improved connectivity at Manchester Airport and London Heathrow
Provide a strong foundation to secure the long-term future of Flybe, its customers and its people by leveraging the combined commercial, operational and functional expertise and scale of Virgin Atlantic and Stobart Group
Utilise the strength of the Virgin Atlantic brand, and the offer of an enhanced customer experience in keeping with Virgin Atlantic’s heritage
Provide the Combined Group with an enhanced presence at Manchester Airport , London Heathrow Airport, with the potential to grow further in London Southend Airport"


I'll share my thoughts below using the same headings as the first post.

However, my overarching point is that I don't expect anything to change overnight, it will take time to put the building blocks in place, but the pace of growth should pick up.

Existing Route Network

Clearly this should permit VS to develop the base further, faster and address the major issues which are seasonality and lack of frequency (assuming the fleet issues are resolved).

I'd expect the network to be developed into a series of departure waves, which in my book requires higher frequencies and year round services. At least daily to JFK, ATL, MCO, LAS, LAX, BOS and higher frequency to the likes of BGI and any new routes to be opened (see below).


New Routes?

I think this offers the chance to open new and previously operated routes.

SFO should be in the thinking, as well as SEA, MIA and DEL. Id not be surprised to see JNB and perhaps BKK appear (even if some are seasonal) as well as some of the beach routes currently / also flown from LGW.

Short Haul?

The optimisation of the legacy BE network to support MAN will be interesting.

It should be relatively easy to understand the objective for the UK, as you would imagine the objective should be to connect MAN to each of the second / third / fourth tier UK regionals that can sensibly be plugged into the network. I don't think too much needs to change. I'd expect 4 - 5 daily frequencies to the likes of GLA, EDI, ABZ, INV, NCL, STN, SEN, NWI, NQY, EXE, SOU, as well as the major airports on the island or Ireland and the channel islands and the IoM.

Ideally you'd want the hub banks at MAN to have tight turnarounds, so that if they decide to cut (by way of example) SOU-NCL the same journey can be made SOU-MAN-NCL with a tight turnaround at MAN with minimal time penalty.

The extent to which they seek to gain a foothold in Europe is something I don't know much about. You'd expect they'd look to connect MAN to secondary French, Italian, German, Iberian and Scandinavian airports with little direct long haul to compete with IAG and LH Group (not AF/KL so much).

Fleet

The obvious question is what to do with the BE legacy fleet. DL have an order for A220, perhaps some of these will make their way to the UK?

Infrastructure at MAN

Its difficult to see how a Clubhouse isn't provided, and I expect the legacy BE operation to move to Terminal 2 with VS. The question is when these things happen.

I wonder whether VS might want a dedicated pier at MAN (or something similar) to improve the transfer proves and get their short and long haul aircraft in close proximity. I also wonder if they might support USPC for additional advantage and to compete with DUB.

Potentially exciting times ahead - any thoughts welcome!

Best post ever! Here's to VS at MAN!

I can confirm that the Virgin Atlantic clubhouse will be on the fourth floor of the new T2X retail and food complex. It will be situated next to a new escape lounge. 2020 is the proposed opening date for this area of the airport. With Pier 1 opening in April 2019 which I'm told is an open airline faculty, basically meaning that any airline that operates out of T2 can use it. I would imagine MAN will be trying to free up gates in the existing terminal building so it can push on with the next pier.

I can confirm that the Virgin Atlantic clubhouse will be on the fourth floor of the new T2X retail and food complex. It will be situated next to a new escape lounge.

You sound like a guy in the know. Has this been announced yet?

Joshl's source may be this post on SkyscraperCity forum. Some chap got a tour and gave the future location of the Clubhouse.

It's not common knowledge on here but I work in the media industry. I have known for 6 months that there will be a clubhouse at MAN I have just struggled to verify the location. Primarily because the USPC project for pier 2 got shelved. There was talk of Virgin then using pier 3 in the new T2X, but this is where Emirates 2 A380 gates would be with an Emirates lounge. But that link also proves it SlimpyJones good work. MAN was always going to have a new escape lounge so thats one lounge spaces gone and Virgin have now taken the second in the main terminal. I cannot help but feel that Emirates have the right idea building their lounge above the gates. But yes the secret is out clubhouse 2020 !

It's not common knowledge on here but I work in the media industry. I have known for 6 months that there will be a clubhouse at MAN I have just struggled to verify the location. Primarily because the USPC project for pier 2 got shelved. There was talk of Virgin then using pier 3 in the new T2X, but this is where Emirates 2 A380 gates would be with an Emirates lounge. But that link also proves it SlimpyJones good work. MAN was always going to have a new escape lounge so thats one lounge spaces gone and Virgin have now taken the second in the main terminal. I cannot help but feel that Emirates have the right idea building their lounge above the gates. But yes the secret is out clubhouse 2020 !

Shame about USBPC being shelved, but good to hear about a Clubhouse.

I think in Emirates' case, it was also easier to build it above one of the gates as it'll probably be one of the few A380-capable gates, so as that's what they now send most of time with only one EK plane on the ground at MAN at any time (under normal circumstances) it makes sense. Virgin, on the other hand, can have multiple aircraft of different sizes in at any one time and soon that will multiply with the Flybe takeover, so it's less practical for them to have a Clubhouse directly above one of the gates as they could be anywhere.

[mitchja]

So Emirates must be moving from T1 where they are currently located as I believe the gate in T1 they use now is currently the only A380 approved gate at MAN isn't it?

I seem to remember they where originally in T2 anyway but had to move to T1 when they started using their A380s didn't they?

So Emirates must be moving from T1 where they are currently located as I believe the gate in T1 they use now is currently the only A380 approved gate at MAN isn't it?

I seem to remember they where originally in T2 anyway but had to move to T1 when they started using their A380s didn't they?

I think there were several reasons Emirates moved over to T1. The A380 was certainly one - stand 12 (unsure if that correlates to gate 12) at the end of T1 Pier B keeps the A380 out of the way. Also, at present, none of the taxiways that go up to T2 are A380 certified if you look at the A380 ground movement chart for MAN. Taxiway D that heads towards T2 - the A380 cleared movement area ends near the end of Pier C of T1.

I would guess another big driver for Emirates moving to T1 was lounge space - they would have wanted a prominent lounge position that gives the impression they want for their premium customers. There is / was no real space available in T2 - yet over in T1 Emirates have a very large lounge with floor-to-ceiling windows overlooking the airfield all along one wall. None of the lounges in T2 overlook the airfield - any windows they have are generally small and look into the departures area below - or in the case of the Escape Lounge down onto the landside remote stand busing area from the now defunct Gate 300. (This area is now a construction site for a new baggage hall / sorting system).

I don’t know how much space there is in the extended / refurbished terminal for lounge space. To an extent this will depend on the extent to which the Interior of the existing T2 is renovated to reflect the interior of the new T2X.

FWIW I believe the EK lounge is now going to be at a lower (arrivals) level in the new pier 3. I’m unclear how this can deliver views of the airfield and also not obstruct the arrivals flow, but perhaps it is at the very end of the pier.

I also believe lounges will be able to be located in the existing south east pier, but have no idea how large or attractive this space will be.

Given that the majority of MAN’s “full service” carriers are likely to move to T2 within the next 5 years or so, I’d expect to see the full range of lounge options.

We know that there will be a VS clubhouse, V-room, EK lounge, Escape lounge. I also bet there will be an 1903 lounge , something for star alliance (whether star branded or otherwise) and perhaps QR and CX (subject to expansion plans).

From VS’s perspective, USPC is likely to be an important selling point, if the intention is to turn MAN into the DL/VS/AF/KL/KE equivalent of IAG’s DUB hub. The potential for what this could deliver is obviously very significant, but the execution of this is critical because there are so many key elements that need to come together to make it a success. It’s pleasing to see one element (clubhouse) as good as confirmed.

FWIW I believe the EK lounge is now going to be at a lower (arrivals) level in the new pier 3. I’m unclear how this can deliver views of the airfield and also not obstruct the arrivals flow, but perhaps it is at the very end of the pier.

I also believe lounges will be able to be located in the existing south east pier, but have no idea how large or attractive this space will be.

I am sure one of the renderings I have seen of the fully completed T2 had one of the piers (Pier 3 I think - the next one they are going to build) clearly a level higher than the others, with a note saying the extra floor was for airline lounge space).

I am sure one of the renderings I have seen of the fully completed T2 had one of the piers (Pier 3 I think - the next one they are going to build) clearly a level higher than the others, with a note saying the extra floor was for airline lounge space).

You are quite right - I think I know the render you are referring to.

However, the information about the EK terminal post-dates the render (apparently they looked into it and that option is too expensive).

Disappointing IMO.

Laing O'Rourke who is the main construction company for the new T2X made a lot of changes to the original design. One being putting all piers on stilts to reduce changes in levels for passengers. I think the plan is to go open pier 1 build pier 3 and then pier 2. Pier 2 is where the USCPC was going to go and a new bus lounge for remote stands. With the VS takeover of Flybe there will be a need for some kind of domestic gate operation.

I'm really looking forward to the clubhouse if it looks anything like LAX or EWR I will be happy.

I imagine it will be a similar set up to LGW with a VRoom and Clubhouse and I imagine it won’t be far off size wise either!