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#954423 by Dobbo
22 Feb 2020, 22:06
Per @airportnewsMAN it looks like there are some changes to departure times for W20. JFK (16.15 / 16.40) and ATL (15.55) are now afternoon departures.

Does this mean they are trying to increase connection opportunities, or are additional frequencies going to appear (the latter would be odd in Winter).

The account mentions a new eastern route (I suspect either DEL or BOM) with a departure at 18.30.
#954424 by mitchja
22 Feb 2020, 22:29
That would explain why when I was looking for FLL flights for New Year again recently, nothing was coming up from MAN (either via JFK or ATL) as with the later arrival times (which are already loaded on the website) means onward connections become very difficult.

Whilst JFK is more a point to point route (fewer onward connections) that may work even with a 19:05 arrival into JFK.

The problem will be ATL though......as that route isn't point to point generally as many pax will be onward connecting and with a 20:05 arrival into ATL, options for same day connections will have all but run out.
#954425 by Dobbo
22 Feb 2020, 22:58
I think that’s pretty much spot on.

LAS, JFK, BOS, BGI, LAX can all depart mid-afternoon with minimal difficulty because that maximises time for connections to assemble at MAN - there will be relatively few onward travellers (most perhaps over LAX).

ATL is very different, and I question the wisdom of this.

MCO is insulated as it commands multiple daily departures. I wonder if JFK will be in the same boat in the next 18-24 months (1x B744 to 2x A333).

We’ll see - certainly indicates that news can be expected shortly for W20 and I daresay S21 won’t be too far behind.
#954426 by David1946
23 Feb 2020, 00:42
Fully agree with James ATL will become a no no. We currently use it to connect to Fort Myers and a 20.05 arrival will be useless. It seems to start at beginning of November so might have to look at other airlines for next year. Seems a very strange way to develop Manchester
#954427 by Dobbo
23 Feb 2020, 09:13
It does seem odd - unless morning services to ATL (in particular) and JFK appear in addition It feels very strange.
#954429 by allenby
23 Feb 2020, 09:43
VS128 JFK MAN in June 2020 just got moved to 825pm departure and changed from 747 to 332

also, does anyone know when the MAN clubhouse will open?

thanks
#954430 by Dobbo
23 Feb 2020, 10:28
I think the Clubhouse opens with the rest of the T2 Extension - if that’s right it is July 2020.

Strange that the size of the aircraft would be reduced in peak summer (slightly bigger business cabin which probably helps).
#954432 by mitchja
23 Feb 2020, 11:42
allenby wrote:all the info on the clubhouse opening I could find was just "spring" 2020, with no recent updates.


I don't think there a definite date yet hence the vague reports so far. From what I can gather there have been a few delays with the new terminal build so far.
#954433 by Dobbo
23 Feb 2020, 13:57
I think there have been delays - the most recent update I am aware of is that the airside facilities (departure lounges etc which I think includes the airline lounges) opens in July.

The check in and baggage handling bits are due to open in the autumn.

I don’t know this for a fact so happy to stand corrected if that is wrong.
#954439 by VS075
24 Feb 2020, 10:03
mitchja wrote:That would explain why when I was looking for FLL flights for New Year again recently, nothing was coming up from MAN (either via JFK or ATL) as with the later arrival times (which are already loaded on the website) means onward connections become very difficult.

Whilst JFK is more a point to point route (fewer onward connections) that may work even with a 19:05 arrival into JFK.


I think even from a point-to-point perspective, the 7.05pm arrival into JFK isn't great if you're a leisure traveller. In the past when I've done that route with DL and VS I've been lucky to have a morning departure from MAN which means an early-afternoon arrival into JFK meaning a mid-afternoon-ish arrival into Manhattan, so depending how tired you were you still had late-afternoon/evening to do things. Now, you probably wouldn't get into Manhattan until about 9pm-ish which means you've also lost your evening (unless of course you're a night owl).

It's different if you're a business traveller heading to New York as it gives you morning and early-afternoon in Manchester before you need to go to the airport, whereas currently you've practically lost a whole working day.

Is it a slot issue at JFK or part of wider diagramming of aircraft?

The eastbound flight is fine. A 9.35pm departure gives you most of the day before its time to head to JFK and probably works for those connecting onto the VS128. It's a similar time to a flight I took with DL to MAN a few years ago.

In comparison, the United alternative leaves MAN at 9am and gets you into EWR for 12pm which works a lot better for both O&D and connecting traffic, though admittedly I don't know what the connection opportunities are at EWR after midday.
#954445 by David1946
24 Feb 2020, 12:53
It also seems very strange especially Atlanta. On our flight over 3 weeks ago the Upper cabin was full and most were connecting onwards. An arrival time around 8pm, even without delays, makes it almost impossible to catch a connection. There is always the risk of the VS109 being delayed and having to overnight in Atlanta.
A couple of years ago we were on the VS110 and, due to bad weather in Atlanta over 400 flights were cancelled. The 110 that night had around 60 passengers instead the expected almost full 333 I.e. a load factor of around 20%. I don't see the flight surviving at that level.

Guess we will have to look at the United (EWR) or the AA via Phil in future. Such a shame after 14 years flying VS
#954446 by Dobbo
24 Feb 2020, 13:08
Switching the MAN-ATL flight to a late seems like such an obvious act of self harm that I struggle to believe it is a genuine plan (at least on its own).

Having a late JFK is fine, provided there is also an early departure on VS or DL. I’d say the market at MAN (plus via Virgin Connect and other transfer opportunities) is well capable of supporting a double daily A330 B763 if DL).

DL did express an interest in more flying to MAN a few months back - perhaps the explanation lies around this.

Either way, I suspect there is more to it than meets the eye - but all will be revealed I’m sure.
#954461 by matt.hibb
25 Feb 2020, 12:44
Great news on the new route. It will be interesting to see the flight times.

With regard to ATL, I agree, 15:55 just seems the most bizarre departure time. I use this route sometimes on business and it basically rules it out for onward connections to my usual destinations. It either arrives too late to make a connecting flight at all, or the connection is so late I know I'll be knackered the next day. It's just so weird, ATL is probably the only flight out of MAN that is not mostly point to point traffic.
#954466 by David
25 Feb 2020, 14:08
VS075 wrote:
SlimpyJones wrote:MAN-DEL details shamelessly stolen from this Twitter post

MAN 1640-0605+1 DEL (Mon, Thu, Sat)
DEL 0810-1210 MAN (Tue, Fri & Sun)

Seasonal route for Winter 2020.

Using an A333.



It will be A330-200's according to the VS press release...

https://corporate.virginatlantic.com/gb ... -2020.html


Don’t know if anybody picked up on the page from above quote. “From January 2021 .... Virgin Atlantic will now fly a Boeing 747 three times a week”

It looks like the jumbos will be around for a little longer . :-)

David
#954472 by Dobbo
25 Feb 2020, 17:18
It’s a start to the promised hub (the DEL-MAN leg connects okay to MAN-JFK) but it is clearly in its infancy - hubs are not made by 3x weekly seasonal services.

It’s a start, and breaks VS at MAN away from the well trodden path of TATL flying, setting a precedent for possible future routes to BOM, JNB, CPT, PEK, PVG and TYO - if this goes well as a starter for ten.
#954473 by SlimpyJones
25 Feb 2020, 17:24
Indeed, 3x weekly seasonal isn't much but it's the proverbial toe-in-the-water that starts things off. The MAN-JFK/ATL timings are odd and can only be explained with Westbound Delhi connections in mind.
The timings are a little unkind Eastbound though, the VS128 (JFK-MAN) gets in at 9am-ish which would leave a seven hour gap for anyone connecting to India, so I'm not quite sure how easy that's going to tie up.
#954496 by Dobbo
26 Feb 2020, 12:57
A little sleuthing suggests that the picture for Virgin Atlantic for Winter 2020 at MAN is not yet complete.

A few months ago, OAG were showing increases on ATL/JFK as well as showing LAX/LAS as new for the winter season. This showed LAX was on a Tuesday and Sunday, and LAS on a Tuesday and Thursday and ATL daily except Tue. Looking at the current confirmed schedule (what is based and the gaps in utilisation) the gaps fit perfectly to allow the flights listed above (in particular LAS and LAX).

It seems MAN has 1 A332 based. It does DEL on Mon/Th/Sat (it can do LAX on Tuesday and Sunday - as per OAG a while back).

There are 5 B744 based. These look to operate the following:

1 does JFK daily
2 does MCO daily.
3 does BGI Monday, Thursday, Saturday (gaps on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday).
4 does ATL Monday, Friday, Saturday and MCO on Thursday (gaps on Tuesday, Wednesday, Sunday).
5 does MCO on Saturday (lots of capacity)

This leaves plenty of availability for a Tuesday and Thursday LAS, and three more ATL (the gaps on ATL are three from Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Sunday).

This leaves further slack for further JFK services which could have a more attractive morning departure.

This ignores the possibility of further DL services into MAN (eg ATL, JFK, BOS). It also ignores what might be 2 unallocated A333 (not assigned between LHR, MAN or LGW).

It also ignores future deliveries of A35K, A339 (which I think start arriving within the year) and possible retirements or lease extensions (eg of the A333 fleet).

It is possible that some or all of that excess B744 capacity could go to GLA or BFS for MCO - but who knows.
#954498 by CommanderB
26 Feb 2020, 14:42
Dobbo wrote:A little sleuthing suggests that the picture for Virgin Atlantic for Winter 2020 at MAN is not yet complete.

A few months ago, OAG were showing increases on ATL/JFK as well as showing LAX/LAS as new for the winter season. This showed LAX was on a Tuesday and Sunday, and LAS on a Tuesday and Thursday and ATL daily except Tue. Looking at the current confirmed schedule (what is based and the gaps in utilisation) the gaps fit perfectly to allow the flights listed above (in particular LAS and LAX).

It seems MAN has 1 A332 based. It does DEL on Mon/Th/Sat (it can do LAX on Tuesday and Sunday - as per OAG a while back).

There are 5 B744 based. These look to operate the following:

1 does JFK daily
2 does MCO daily.
3 does BGI Monday, Thursday, Saturday (gaps on Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday, Sunday).
4 does ATL Monday, Friday, Saturday and MCO on Thursday (gaps on Tuesday, Wednesday, Sunday).
5 does MCO on Saturday (lots of capacity)

This leaves plenty of availability for a Tuesday and Thursday LAS, and three more ATL (the gaps on ATL are three from Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Sunday).

This leaves further slack for further JFK services which could have a more attractive morning departure.

This ignores the possibility of further DL services into MAN (eg ATL, JFK, BOS). It also ignores what might be 2 unallocated A333 (not assigned between LHR, MAN or LGW).

It also ignores future deliveries of A35K, A339 (which I think start arriving within the year) and possible retirements or lease extensions (eg of the A333 fleet).

It is possible that some or all of that excess B744 capacity could go to GLA or BFS for MCO - but who knows.


For the goodness sake, I hope they do not do this. (Good sleuthing though). Please, please let the 744's go.
#954500 by Dobbo
26 Feb 2020, 15:58
The Winter 2020 season is rolling around pretty quickly - around 7/8 months away.

Perhaps by Winter 2021 we’ll see the B744s gone (from memory most of the A35K will be delivered and also some of the A339 will start to arrive).
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