#672003 by roadrunner
17 Jan 2008, 18:58
I think what's most impressive (besides the pilots' ability to react quickly enough to raise the plane's nose to glide over the fence to the runway and get wheels down) is that FC were able to evacuate pax incredibly efficiently and safely. I can't imagine how they dealt with the shock both for themselves and with passengers; news reports say that a number of pax were taken to hospital to be treated for shock and minor injuries yet all were evacuated from seats,along aisles and down chutes. Wonder how many remembered to kick off their high heels?

I would point out (ahem) that this is a clear instance it seems of an experienced, dedicated crew being able to deal with sudden, critical crisis.

How many times have you reurned a hire car to one of the firms on the southern perimeter road and had the pleasure of watching jets land on adjacent runways? This plane apparently just gave those all a miss...


RR
#672006 by seany
17 Jan 2008, 19:23
A terrible incident, could have been a lot worse. Well done to the pilots and crew.
#672009 by willd
17 Jan 2008, 19:31
The first pictures are coming up on a.net, and o my it looks like it was bad!

It says the undercarrage was lost (lost in that it dropped off before it crashed?!?)which caused the aircraft to land short. Judging by the map on the beeb they were very lucky that it didn't land on top of Hatton Cross Tube/the residential area surrounding the A30.

Very lucky no one was seriosuly injured or killed. I think this will be a write off to be honest, I would imagine that the insurance people and lawyers are all in for a long night!

Picture One

Picture Two

Picture Three

Btw isn't this thread in the wrong place?!?
#672012 by Nottingham Nick
17 Jan 2008, 19:40
Originally posted by willd
Btw isn't this thread in the wrong place?!?


Thanks Will.

I echo everyone's thoughts that it is great that no one was seriously hurt.

I have moved the thread for housekeeping purposes to the BA forum, as I think it is one that will run and run while the causes are sorted out.

Nick
#672015 by VS075
17 Jan 2008, 19:48
Originally posted by willd
Btw isn't this thread in the wrong place?!?


Was wondering why I couldn't find it in the first place, hence my (now deleted for duplicated) thread.

Glad to hear that nobody has died in the incident.
#672019 by Neil
17 Jan 2008, 19:58
According to ITN News, both engines failed at 400feet and the flight deck didn't even have time to inform the CC. They have put this to BA who have not denied it.
#672021 by Tinkerbelle
17 Jan 2008, 20:15
Has anyone else noticed that every channel seems to be turning to that cabbie who was driving along the Perimeter Road as their 'Expert Eyewitness'.[?]

He is going to tell that story to every fare of his for months![:0]
#672026 by VS045
17 Jan 2008, 20:40
I thought the undercarriage collapsed during the actual landing not before.

45.
#672039 by willd
17 Jan 2008, 22:07
I have just seen the news and the whole situation seems clearer now.

This is what I have gleaned so far from a.net/bbc news 24/sky news (I tried pprune but the website is currently down due to high demand on the sever!)

Aircraft passed barely above perimeter fence and managed to hit the ground some way off the runway. Flight International are saying the plane would have been near stalling upon landing.

Once it hit the undercarriage fell off and the plane skidded.

Apparently passengers believed it to be a bad landing and were not aware they had crashed!

6 of the 13 injured, were CC.

The press could be accused of scare mongering- they are currently questioning the safety of the 777, strange how in recent years when there have been other crashes out of the UK they have not been questioning the a/c type in those situations. Its a shame none of the news reports are mentioning that this is the first ever hull loss of a 777 after some 15 (?) years in service.
#672042 by Bean Counter
17 Jan 2008, 22:29
Originally posted by willd
Its a shame none of the news reports are mentioning that this is the first ever hull loss of a 777 after some 15 (?) years in service.
To be fair BBC did mention this, as part of a quote from Flight International.

from BBC report on website
Aviation expert Kieran Daly, from Flight International magazine, said not a single Boeing 777 had been lost in a crash since the aircraft was launched in 1995.


link
#672046 by mike-smashing
17 Jan 2008, 23:05
That's assuming the airframe is written off. Qantas insisted on the repair of VH-OJH after it had the scenic detour onto the golf course at BKK a few years ago, so they could say that QF has never suffered a hull loss.

However, the damage to G-YMMM looks very significant, in terms of how the gear appears to have sheared off. There appears to be serious damage to the wing spars in the area of the wing root, particularly on the port side.

There's probably stress based deformation in the wing box, as well as scrape damage to the aircraft belly.

It's likely to be enough for the insurer to write the aircraft off.

Of course, even once the aircraft is removed from the crash site, it will then be impounded by the AAIB for detailed inspection as part of the crash investigation.

It sounds like a first rate job was done by the flightdeck and cabin crew on the aircraft, the flightdeck for managing to make the crash survivable, and from reports, the cabin crew for getting everyone out very quickly and safely.

From what eyewitnesses have said, the first fire engines and ambulances were already rolling up to the scene as the evacuation was being done - that is a seriously quick and impressive response!

Guess we just have to wait for the AAIB report now, to find out the real story.

Mike
#672051 by willd
17 Jan 2008, 23:29
Yeh I think the wing damage is too much for it not to be a write off.

Interesting you mention the QF crash at BKK- that was due to power loss which it is looking like this could have been.

THe pilot and 1st office deserve a lot of praise, excellent job.
#672057 by mas66
18 Jan 2008, 00:46
Whilst accidents when travelling by air are still very rare..... this is chilling reminder as to why most of us choose to fly with the carriers that we do.

I put BA and VS in the same category as having first rate guys and girls sitting right at the front and a timely reminder that the folks who greet us and then serve our meals & drinks etc (who we often moan about because they didnt do or say something quite right) could actually be saving our lives one day, by getting us quickly out of something like this, I take my hat off to you all [^].

It also reminds me why its a good idea not to chose a second rate airline just to save a few quid on a long haul trip ..... you have to ask yourself would an old aircraft withstand such an impact and would second rate flight deck/cabin crew have saved so many lives ?

Just some thoughts after following events of today.

Mark [;)]
#672058 by Darren Wheeler
18 Jan 2008, 00:58
and as has been mentioned, a reminder that the safety briefing isn't just a way of filling the time between pushing away and taking off.
#672064 by Bean Counter
18 Jan 2008, 07:37
The AAIB are due to file an initial report into the incident within 48 hours it appears. BBC Link.

Hopefully this should give everyone a clearer view of what went wrong and will lead to less, potentially unhelpful but understandable, speculation.
#672067 by willd
18 Jan 2008, 09:26
Originally posted by mas66


It also reminds me why its a good idea not to chose a second rate airline just to save a few quid on a long haul trip ..... you have to ask yourself would an old aircraft withstand such an impact and would second rate flight deck/cabin crew have saved so many lives ?



I would have to disagree.

All carriers in the modern world (west and east) are tested/examined so often that they are amongst the most safe to fly with. Even carriers that some may view as 'second rate' still take crew training and safety as there number one priority. It would be just plain stupid to invest millions in creating an airline and not take safety seriously.

The FAA/CAA and such authorities take safety very seriously and are always inspecting/approving carriers for travel. I believe that any pilot on any carrier would have reacted in the same that this pilot did.

Fleet age would not be an issue either. Aircraft are not judged on how many years they have been in the sky they are judged by how many cycles (take off and landings) that have been completed. Again any airplane in a modern fleet will be able to withstand that kind of impact, it was they are built for. If we are to take an older fleet to mean that we are more likely to crash, then we would not have flown VS until about 3 years ago!


Originally posted by Darrenwheeller



And more importantly to pay attention on landing. It often strikes me that people are more concerned with getting to the front of the passport line than actually be aware of the safety issues on landing. After all most plane incidents happen on landing.
#672078 by mas66
18 Jan 2008, 12:56
Originally posted by willd
Originally posted by mas66


It also reminds me why its a good idea not to chose a second rate airline just to save a few quid on a long haul trip ..... you have to ask yourself would an old aircraft withstand such an impact and would second rate flight deck/cabin crew have saved so many lives ?



I would have to disagree.

All carriers in the modern world (west and east) are tested/examined so often that they are amongst the most safe to fly with. Even carriers that some may view as 'second rate' still take crew training and safety as there number one priority. It would be just plain stupid to invest millions in creating an airline and not take safety seriously.

The FAA/CAA and such authorities take safety very seriously and are always inspecting/approving carriers for travel. I believe that any pilot on any carrier would have reacted in the same that this pilot did.

Fleet age would not be an issue either. Aircraft are not judged on how many years they have been in the sky they are judged by how many cycles (take off and landings) that have been completed. Again any airplane in a modern fleet will be able to withstand that kind of impact, it was they are built for. If we are to take an older fleet to mean that we are more likely to crash, then we would not have flown VS until about 3 years ago!



Hi Will

I have to say that in turn I tend to disagree, there are plenty of airlines that have questionable safety records for a variety of reasons... maintenance, age of fleet (however you measure it), quality of crew etc..... to the point that a lot of organisations such as my current and former employers operate 'no fly' lists.... why else would they do this ??

I really think you are doing BA and the flight deck/cabin crew from yesterday a diservice by comparing them with and saying they are no different to some shoddy outfit from a third world carrier.

What you say is fine on paper and in a perfect world...... but we dont live in one [:)]

All IMHO of course.

Cheers

Mark [:D]
#672105 by willd
18 Jan 2008, 16:36
Hi Will

I have to say that in turn I tend to disagree, there are plenty of airlines that have questionable safety records for a variety of reasons... maintenance, age of fleet (however you measure it), quality of crew etc..... to the point that a lot of organisations such as my current and former employers operate 'no fly' lists.... why else would they do this ??

I really think you are doing BA and the flight deck/cabin crew from yesterday a diservice by comparing them with and saying they are no different to some shoddy outfit from a third world carrier.

What you say is fine on paper and in a perfect world...... but we dont live in one [:)]

All IMHO of course.

Cheers

Mark [:D]


Hi Mark!

Carriers all over the world have to meet a standard to be able to fly, otherwise they would not have their operators license. The standard has to be obtained across the board, including maintenance, flight deck crew, cabin crew etc. The a/c of course all have to pass a variety of tests (both with manufacturer and once in service) in order to fly also. And pilots all meet the same objective standard before they are able to fly. Clearly there are good and less good pilots, but as lay people we cannot tell who is a good pilot or who is a less good one. Indeed in all major airlines, it goes without saying, there will be good and less good pilots. Just like there are good and bad people at their jobs in all walks of life. Fleet cycles are also important, but I believe, and Denzil will be able to clarify, but the more cycles the a/c has done the more tests/inspections it is put under thus making it just as safe if not safer than brand new planes.

Of all the carriers that are mentioned on these boards they are all excellent carriers in that regard. The inflight product may not be as good as BA or VS but they are still obtaining the same safety levels in every aspect of an airline otherwise they would not be flying.

The crew of the BA flight did an excellent job yesterday but we should not let the media spin make us believe that a pilot from EK, VS, EZY, FR or any of the other carriers using UK airports (take Transaero for example) would not have done exactly the same. The media seem very good at making us believe that problems happen with airlines due to the airlines themselves. In the majority of cases the problems happen due to a default in the manufacturing of the plane that has not come to light before (as yesterdays problem may prove to be). The most high profile human error incident of recent years would be the SQ 744 that crashed on take off in bad weather at Taipei.

The marketing department of BA/VS would love us to believe that we are less safe in an aircraft from Ryanair, Oman Air or Air China but the fact is, IMHO, we are not and it is a bit of an insult to the staff of those carriers (who often undertake training at BA or VS and of course since 9/11 the majority of First Officers now with airlines like BA and VS have started out with the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair or in the RAF).

As for no fly lists. Is the main criteria safety? I know of a major company in the banking industry whose no fly list is qualified by a number of different factors such as: Value for money, route network, corporate discount, on time performance, reliability and safety. If the main criteria is safety then maybe those airlines who have had major incidents at LHR in the last 10 years are not on the list (thats BA and VS only btw).

The crew of BA38 did an excellent job yesterday and so did the emergency services, who were on the scene within 30 seconds of the slides being deployed. Maybe I am different to the vast majority on here (and that may come from my interest as an aviation fan on the whole) but I see pilots as pilots, I do not see a BA pilot as being better than one from EZY or from Alitalia.
#672106 by slinky09
18 Jan 2008, 18:29
The more news that comes out simply suggests that the flight crew and cabin crew did an outstanding job.

Amazing credit to them - I hope, if I have the misfortune ever to be in a similar situation, to have the professionalism they showed.

I guess we'll learn more in the near future about the actual cause - I hope that doesn't detriment a great flying machine.
#672107 by mas66
18 Jan 2008, 19:34

Hi Mark!

Carriers all over the world have to meet a standard to be able to fly, otherwise they would not have their operators license. The standard has to be obtained across the board, including maintenance, flight deck crew, cabin crew etc. The a/c of course all have to pass a variety of tests (both with manufacturer and once in service) in order to fly also. And pilots all meet the same objective standard before they are able to fly. Clearly there are good and less good pilots, but as lay people we cannot tell who is a good pilot or who is a less good one. Indeed in all major airlines, it goes without saying, there will be good and less good pilots. Just like there are good and bad people at their jobs in all walks of life. Fleet cycles are also important, but I believe, and Denzil will be able to clarify, but the more cycles the a/c has done the more tests/inspections it is put under thus making it just as safe if not safer than brand new planes.

Of all the carriers that are mentioned on these boards they are all excellent carriers in that regard. The inflight product may not be as good as BA or VS but they are still obtaining the same safety levels in every aspect of an airline otherwise they would not be flying.

The crew of the BA flight did an excellent job yesterday but we should not let the media spin make us believe that a pilot from EK, VS, EZY, FR or any of the other carriers using UK airports (take Transaero for example) would not have done exactly the same. The media seem very good at making us believe that problems happen with airlines due to the airlines themselves. In the majority of cases the problems happen due to a default in the manufacturing of the plane that has not come to light before (as yesterdays problem may prove to be). The most high profile human error incident of recent years would be the SQ 744 that crashed on take off in bad weather at Taipei.

The marketing department of BA/VS would love us to believe that we are less safe in an aircraft from Ryanair, Oman Air or Air China but the fact is, IMHO, we are not and it is a bit of an insult to the staff of those carriers (who often undertake training at BA or VS and of course since 9/11 the majority of First Officers now with airlines like BA and VS have started out with the likes of Easyjet and Ryanair or in the RAF).

As for no fly lists. Is the main criteria safety? I know of a major company in the banking industry whose no fly list is qualified by a number of different factors such as: Value for money, route network, corporate discount, on time performance, reliability and safety. If the main criteria is safety then maybe those airlines who have had major incidents at LHR in the last 10 years are not on the list (thats BA and VS only btw).

The crew of BA38 did an excellent job yesterday and so did the emergency services, who were on the scene within 30 seconds of the slides being deployed. Maybe I am different to the vast majority on here (and that may come from my interest as an aviation fan on the whole) but I see pilots as pilots, I do not see a BA pilot as being better than one from EZY or from Alitalia.






Firstly I apologise to others for taking this slightly OT and dont want it to detract from the praise and interest resulting from yesterday.

Will

First off I bow to your greater interest and therfore knowledge around things aircraft (and I mean that genuinely).

You made a big assumption when I refer to 'second rate airlines' that I was perhaps meaning the carriers that you list in your post.... perhaps I should have been more specific in actually meaning someone hopping outside the UK to pick up a long haul flight somewhere else in the world on a questionable carrier just to save a few quid..... not a 'major airline'. Although there are some questionable 'national airlines' that the lay person may consider a 'major airline'

I really think you are living in a rose tinted world if you beleive that all airlines throughout the world operate to the rules, have well maintained aircraft and first rate staff, because the reality is they dont.

The 'no fly' list that I refer to is purely safety based, financial concerns are a seperate issue. The EU also issues a 'No Fly' list based on safety !

Not that long ago I had no choice but to fly out of Afghanistan, on a commercial airline, on a scheduled service, on a paid for ticket. The aircraft was an ageing Soviet heap of junk. During the taxi to the runway, people were wandering around the cabin, talking on mobile phones etc, seats were broken, what were the cabin crew doing ? ... taking no notice and in fact two of them were themselves using mobile phones !.... I wont bore you with the rest of the flight but Im sure you get the picture ..... are you really telling me that every airline has first rate aircraft, crew etc ?? .. I really dont think so.

Perhaps we should agree to have slightly differeing views of the real world [:)]

Cheers
Mark[:D]
#672112 by Scrooge
18 Jan 2008, 20:50
link

Initial indications from the interviews and Flight Recorder analyses show the flight and approach to have progressed normally until the aircraft was established on late finals for Runway 27L. At approximately 600 ft and 2 miles from touch down, the Autothrottle demanded an increase in thrust from the two engines but the engines did not respond. Following further demands for increased thrust from the Autothrottle, and subsequently the flight crew moving the throttle levers, the engines similarly failed to respond. The aircraft speed reduced and the aircraft descended onto the grass short of the paved runway surface.

The investigation is now focussed on more detailed analysis of the Flight Recorder information, collecting further recorded information from various system modules and examining the range of aircraft systems that could influence engine operation.
#672152 by andrew.m.wright
19 Jan 2008, 14:24
Spotted this at www.telegraph.co.uk this lunchtime.

'A report by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) has disclosed that Boeing 777s were involved in at least 12 incidents where electrical systems have overheated during or before flights. Four of those resulted in overheating which caused 'major damage' to power panels involved in controlling the plane.'
#672194 by slinky09
20 Jan 2008, 05:39
Originally posted by andrew.m.wright
Spotted this at www.telegraph.co.uk this lunchtime.

'A report by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) has disclosed that Boeing 777s were involved in at least 12 incidents where electrical systems have overheated during or before flights. Four of those resulted in overheating which caused 'major damage' to power panels involved in controlling the plane.'



I am trying not to think about this as I sit in DXB after taking one 777-200 from BLR and about to board another for LHR!
#672237 by willd
20 Jan 2008, 20:36
Originally posted by mas66
First off I bow to your greater interest and therfore knowledge around things aircraft (and I mean that genuinely).


Thank you, for those reading this thread Mark and I do get along! Its not some kind of internet fueled hatred- I value his comments greatly.

You made a big assumption when I refer to 'second rate airlines' that I was perhaps meaning the carriers that you list in your post.... perhaps I should have been more specific in actually meaning someone hopping outside the UK to pick up a long haul flight somewhere else in the world on a questionable carrier just to save a few quid..... not a 'major airline'.

Yes sorry I persumed you were talking about people going via CDG or even MAD to get to South America on AF or IB sorry. But Im still struggling to think of any questionable European carrier that would allow for people to hop to their hub to connect to elsewhere.


The 'no fly' list that I refer to is purely safety based, financial concerns are a seperate issue. The EU also issues a 'No Fly' list based on safety !

I know they do but the list is made up of mainly dodgy African carriers who hardly ever operate here. The most high profile airline of late on the list was PIA although they were on it only for their 742's. Their 777's are brand new and allowed into the EU.

are you really telling me that every airline has first rate aircraft, crew etc ?? .. I really dont think so.

No but Im saying that the airlines operating to/from Europe have to meet a standard of safety or they would not be allowed in. To mainstream long haul destinations I do not believe that there is less safety if you select to go via FCO, CDG or even ATH to get to your final destination. If its via Kabul then that is a whole different kettle of fish I would imagine.

Perhaps we should agree to have slightly differeing views of the real world [:)]

I agree [:D]
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