In Loving Memory - Virgin Atlantic Service

quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion

How much is spent each year on those damn K-id packs that ultimately end up on Ebay; Sweeping statement but isn't the primary driving factor for Economy, the price? Has anyone gone and booked an airline because they offered a kids pack? Please.


Errr, yes. For us it 'made the brand/experience different'. One of the attributes, along with IFE, that drew us to VS when ANZ to LAX was so much cheaper in economy over a decade ago. To assume that those who wish to travel but can't necessarily afford in the premium classes (or have found the premium classes SRO) are simply going for the cheapest option is well wide of the mark.

Paul

quote:Originally posted by mitchja
The whole travel industry is now a price driven market. We are all paying less for airfares than we where a couple of years ago in all classes. VS can't afford to increase fares because they have to aline their fare with everyone elses.


Sorry to be somewhat strident about this but NO we are not paying less. I have every ticket price for travel bought over the last five years and if you booked a PE return to JFK tomorrow and coming back by Friday you will pay >300 more than last year. This is not all tax.

[Neil]

quote:Originally posted by pjh
quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion

How much is spent each year on those damn K-id packs that ultimately end up on Ebay; Sweeping statement but isn't the primary driving factor for Economy, the price? Has anyone gone and booked an airline because they offered a kids pack? Please.


Errr, yes. For us it 'made the brand/experience different'. One of the attributes, along with IFE, that drew us to VS when ANZ to LAX was so much cheaper in economy over a decade ago. To assume that those who wish to travel but can't necessarily afford in the premium classes (or have found the premium classes SRO) are simply going for the cheapest option is well wide of the mark.

Paul



I agree. Just read The Dibb and see what is important for families. Cost is number one yes, but then things like the IFE, even the IFE having games, things to keep the kids entertained are important.

To many on here, 400/500 for a Y flight to MCO is cheap, but to a family of 5, 2500 is a lot of money and they would much rather have IFE and a kids pack, then a specific type of alcohol or a cake stand.

Again, it comes down to VS not being able to please everyone, and everyone having different requirements.

quote:Originally posted by RichardMannionEDIT: I see this has just been posted up on the VS Facebook site:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N71l3WK-bYQ - maybe its time to send an open e-mail to Mr Ridgway and the other members of the Exec Director team.


'Lazy Sunday... Listen to some Jazz...', hmm, I can see that live jazz trio lasting all of, let's see, the three minutes and 3 seconds that video lasted.

Mind you, I could get into that Guitar Hero for a few hours.

H

quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion
If the banks/backers were really making the calls to stop the haircuts and charge for treatments, why spend the xm on the LGW CH refit in the first place? Its not as if they could get the refurb for free is it? And the time to break-even for the refit by charging for treatments is going to be eons.



No but the Banks/Backers could well be saying we will give you xmillion to refurbish the LGW CH because it will be a major selling point over say the regular lounges other carriers offer premium cabins. However we won't give you y amount to spend on haircuts because in the grand scheme of things, looking at the figures, a refurbished CH will bring in more customers. In the exact same way that a modern and up to date lie flat seat will bring in more customers than say a good ice cream sundae or a free tube of Cowshed lip balm.

I think the difference is this; the larger hard products (such as the UCS, the CH) are the things that will attract someone to the carrier. The little things (such as a cake stand or Cowshed lip balm) keep customers feeling happy and wanting to remain with the carrier. A prime example of this is Slinky, he has just stated he would look at DL because of their new seat. He is not thinking I am off to DL because I can get a free haircut there or because they offer a good ice cream sundae, the seat is the thing that has attracted him. The balance for VS is to keep attracting customers (through improvements to CH for example) and ensuring that they don't annoy the current loyal customers. They seem to be getting this wrong currently.

quote:Originally posted by pjh
quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion
How much is spent each year on those damn K-id packs that ultimately end up on Ebay; Sweeping statement but isn't the primary driving factor for Economy, the price? Has anyone gone and booked an airline because they offered a kids pack? Please.

Errr, yes. For us it 'made the brand/experience different'. One of the attributes, along with IFE, that drew us to VS when ANZ to LAX was so much cheaper in economy over a decade ago. To assume that those who wish to travel but can't necessarily afford in the premium classes (or have found the premium classes SRO) are simply going for the cheapest option is well wide of the mark.

Paul


I would agree also. As a 7 year old back in 1992 about to board my first VS flight, one of the main reasons why my parents had selected the airline was due to the KID Backpack and the IFE available. Its down to the individual preference really. Just because one is flying down the back does not mean they have not researched the best option taking into account money and the service level given/little extra things. Certainly people down the back on their once in a lifetime trip to Florida will be much happier with a KID Backpack for the little ones than a cake stand upfront.

[Nottingham Nick]

I don't think the K-ID back packs are a waste of money either - Chris grew up with them; and they are excellent for forging exactly the brand loyalty that I harp on a about, and want more of.

Just look at McDonalds for an example of how to create young loyal customers. [:$] Okay - there is no such thing as a 100% success rate, but as others have said - the K-ID packs are the deciding factor for a lot of families.

Nick

I have been reading this thread with interest.

One of the things that drew me to VS in the late 90's (when I basically started doing lots of overseas travel) was the combination of price and service but price was the main driver. I also travelled mainly in Y but did PE if there was a sale on.

I travelled a few times with VS but moved to UA mainly because of price but found the service to be good so stuck with them for a few years.

I moved back to VS last year, simply because of price, and have done 3 UC round trips (and did TRs too!). I decided to upgrade myself to the premium cabin simply because I thought I was worth it but was not prepared to pay silly money so it was sale fares for me. My future travel plans will be based on price so UA, BA, AA, DL, AC etc may also get my custom.

Some of the service cuts have been, to my mind, silly but tbh am I bothered that there is no T10 on board? Not really because I don't drink gin but I can see it matters to some people.

Changes to the booking system at the LHR CH appear to me to be a retrograde step but have I had problems? Again no. I managed a walk-in slot last November (went straight to the spa to book I was originally in PE but did a miles + money upgrade at LHR) but the last two I booked in advance as I had UC ticket.

At the end of September by friend got a cancellation slot which delighted him - I had warned him it might not be possible - but he is now a fan of VS. His original decision to fly VS was simply because of someone elses travel plans but VS will top his list in future.

If no shows are a problem then perhaps the no shows should be sent an email about it and perhaps have some restriction placed on a future booking. This does seam to be a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I used to manage a GP practice and we started to be proactive about managing no shows by sending them a gentle reminder about the need to cancel appointments. Sure we got some abuse over this but it actually worked.

I do realise that VS has to cut costs but I really do think some of them are just plain silly and can't really be saving that much money compared to the grief they appear to be causing. But a lot of pax won't have necessarily noticed especially the once a year flyers.

What have VS done to e.g. reduce food wastage - are all special meals eaten ? what food items are left and by how many pax? Smaller cups of water may seam to be a saver but how much extra CC time is spent doing extra water runs?

Are VS managing the unnecessary use of fuel (what happened to the experiment using tugs?)

How many amenity kits are never picked up (are these collected by CC for use on the next flight or just disposed of?).

Have they made increased efforts to reduce aircraft weight or on-board equipment?

Also, they did not cover themselves in glory re the baggage changes which just caused confusion (and annoyance). The dressing up of it as an 'enhancememnt' was just marketting bollocks. They should have been honest and said we are making it simpler system and some pax will loose and some will gain. If they want to make then they should start strictly enforcing weight limits and ensuring that pax are charged (but maybe have a slight tollerance).

Also, as has been noted several times there is the variable consistency in on board service. This more than anything will annoy pax amd make us look elsewhere.

There are also silly things like the UC desks at LHR which are nothing special - no carpets or special ropes etc like there are for PE with its mood lighting - they are just stuck at the end.

Anyway enough of my ramblings ...

quote:Originally posted by tontybear

How many amenity kits are never picked up (are these collected by CC for use on the next flight or just disposed of?).


Excellent question. [y] I hope one of the readers here can give us the answer.

GJ

[RichardMannion]

quote:Originally posted by Neil
quote:Originally posted by pjh
quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion

How much is spent each year on those damn K-id packs that ultimately end up on Ebay; Sweeping statement but isn't the primary driving factor for Economy, the price? Has anyone gone and booked an airline because they offered a kids pack? Please.


Errr, yes. For us it 'made the brand/experience different'. One of the attributes, along with IFE, that drew us to VS when ANZ to LAX was so much cheaper in economy over a decade ago. To assume that those who wish to travel but can't necessarily afford in the premium classes (or have found the premium classes SRO) are simply going for the cheapest option is well wide of the mark.

Paul



I agree. Just read The Dibb and see what is important for families. Cost is number one yes, but then things like the IFE, even the IFE having games, things to keep the kids entertained are important.

To many on here, 400/500 for a Y flight to MCO is cheap, but to a family of 5, 2500 is a lot of money and they would much rather have IFE and a kids pack, then a specific type of alcohol or a cake stand.

Again, it comes down to VS not being able to please everyone, and everyone having different requirements.


But Neil, we're not talking about a cake stand for Y. We're talking about the 'frills' of the Upper Class product that has been cut away. Price is the key driver for Y traffic nowadays - to rollout major service enhancements for the Y cabin is an expensive business with a longtime to recoup the investment. Its not as if the IFE experience is consistent across the board for starters anyway.

It would appear that I didn't make my point about the K-id packs very well - I was talking about the current climate of cutbacks, I would have thought they would have been one of the first things to go. Instead the experience of the premium cabins has been impacted (though I realise Y service has been reduced too). To attract a premium passenger is a different scenario than attracting an economy traveller. If you want to attract the latter, then primarily have a good price. For the former, price is a factor but then too are the other amenities. In the past the plethora of amenities would have made it a no-brainer for VS, even if they were priced slightly more. Now they are just another carrier without the amenities.

If the bulk of my flying was point-to-point VS flying from a VS 'hub', I might still be with them. I don't believe VS has gone from hero to zero, so to speak. They're just part of the pack now. Regardless of the reasons for this happening (and they may be very good) this will drive away some customers.

Usually the theory here is that you forgo revenue to increase margin now, or more likely down the line. Jury's out on that. I do think that, while Richard made a somewhat strong statement about Y vs J, there are genuinely valid points.

The main one IMO is that truly VS offers fairly little to its FFers who are regularly in UC anyway. When compared with airlines in major alliances, this is a huge disadvantage. VS is starting out from far behind. It has a lot to do to get to +1. Differentiating the product on the small things, like cake stands, good drinks, etc, helps. There was more that was done, and is no more.

I will agree that differentiation across cabins all helps. Personally, however, I have around 120k flown miles this year, about 2/3 in TATL segments out of SFO, none as award tickets, and VS more or less lost me, save for figuring out what to do with a fairly sizable amount of miles left in the account - useful for bringing family over at some point, I guess. I've no idea whether this loss is less critical to VS than potential loss from Y cabins by removing specialty kits; I was never a really top customer like HG, I don't think they want to see a lot of people like myself walk out the door, though.

[Nottingham Nick]

quote:Originally posted by MarkedMan
...The main one IMO is that truly VS offers fairly little to its FFers who are regularly in UC anyway. ...

I think 'fairly little' is being quite generous. Apart from a few paltry bonus miles, what perks does the Au card holder that always flies in UC get?

Nick

Lots of very good thoughts here, and it's clear that what may be an attractive perk to one passenger is totally without weight for another. All the more illustrative of how difficult it must be for VS to balance their offerings, particularly given what His Grace rightly points out is a quite different set of drivers-to-purchase for the various flight classes.

I think His Grace is dead on right about the attractive qualities in Y and in premium classes. I have no Y experience, but I can respect that some Y fliers with children may very well be influenced by any and all perks that help occupy their children. I'd rather have K-ID packs aboard than to leave Fauntleroy with nothing to do but repeatedly run up and down the aisle from Y into UC and back (which I have witnessed twice...and that's two times too many, frankly). I can also personally relate to the attractions of enhanced UC amenities such as IFBT, the onboard bar, CH treatments, etc.

Personally, I fly VS to experience 'something special.' I like the somewhat naughty sauciness of the brand voice, the more relaxed informality of the CC, and yes, the amenities (in and out of the kit!)...take these things away -- as is being done bit by bit -- and you drastically reduce the desire I have to fly down to San Francisco (added expense and time from home to LHR and back again) just to take VS. Every day, I see the BA 744 cruise directly over my house and think, gosh it would be nice to come back from the UK and face a 20 minute drive home upon landing instead of a further 2 hour flight. It's an inconvenience I have been willing to take on because VS has been that special to me -- and I have enjoyed being part of this community -- but given the obvious degradations in that 'special' aspect, and fully understanding that the VS CC remain wonderful for the very most part, I am tempted to go the BA route. I have FC miles good enough for a free r/t in UCS, and enough BA miles for two free r/t in First. I plan to give both airlines a fair shake in the coming year or two and will make my decision then, after giving them both a personal review.

GJ

quote:Originally posted by willd
A prime example of this is Slinky, he has just stated he would look at DL because of their new seat.


I absolutely agree that the hard product is more important - there are increasing numbers of airlines with a better, IMO, seat that VS now, EK's J on the 380, Jet's J on their 777s, AC's newest J, SQ J, need I go on. So the most important part of the hard product at VS is no longer the leader.

However, it is not just this that makes me look at options like DL: the food is, apparently, better, the connections are better, the FF scheme has many more options.

Someone said earlier (sorry) that as a small airline VS has to be better to attract custom from bigger competitors with better FF schemes ... this is a very important point, and I'll revert to earlier: the snips don't work in this context because they devalue the brand and make the traveller feel less special.

This also applies to the FF scheme, as Nick said:

quote:Originally posted by nottinghamnick
I think 'fairly little' is being quite generous. Apart from a few paltry bonus miles, what perks does the Au card holder that always flies in UC get?


For a regular Au I agree. For higher tiers there is a better service and more flexibility as you would expect. But haven't we argued here, many times, that FC needs to be restructured especially at the upper end - and VS produced that marvellous questionnaire last year but absolutely sod all has happened! So where again is VS thinking of it's key customers?

quote:Originally posted by markedman
The main one IMO is that truly VS offers fairly little to its FFers who are regularly in UC anyway. When compared with airlines in major alliances, this is a huge disadvantage. VS is starting out from far behind. It has a lot to do to get to +1. Differentiating the product on the small things, like cake stands, good drinks, etc, helps. There was more that was done, and is no more.


Absolutely [y].

Oh, and GJ:

quote:Originally posted by GJ
Excellent question. I hope one of the readers here can give us the answer.


The answer is 42.

quote:Originally posted by slinky09

Oh, and GJ:

quote:Originally posted by GJ
Excellent question. I hope one of the readers here can give us the answer.


The answer is 42.



LOL - thanks, Slinky! [:D]

GJ

[RichardMannion]

quote:Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
Personally, I fly VS to experience 'something special.' I like the somewhat naughty sauciness of the brand voice, the more relaxed informality of the CC, and yes, the amenities (in and out of the kit!)...take these things away -- as is being done bit by bit -- and you drastically reduce the desire I have to fly down to San Francisco (added expense and time from home to LHR and back again) just to take VS. Every day, I see the BA 744 cruise directly over my house and think, gosh it would be nice to come back from the UK and face a 20 minute drive home upon landing instead of a further 2 hour flight. It's an inconvenience I have been willing to take on because VS has been that special to me -- and I have enjoyed being part of this community -- but given the obvious degradations in that 'special' aspect, and fully understanding that the VS CC remain wonderful for the very most part, I am tempted to go the BA route.

Absolutely - for the past decade I have deliberately gone to my Corporate HQ (more times than I can count) via SFO (sometimes LAX) with VS instead of taking the direct SEA flight that my colleagues did. I was happy with the added travel because of all the fun of the end to end travel experience, and the miles earned were useful for my own leisure travel. BA's equivalent J product wasn't that great then either, and with UCS it was pretty much class leading. Then we enter the era of stagnatation, cutbacks, beancounting, stupidity and its a much different story now - the loyalty and good will has been chipped away. I've tried BA NGCW a few times now with Sarah, and it is a strong product; the big deltas that VS fared better were the overall Clubhouse experience, driven by the haircut/spa offerings, and the bar onboard. Now one of those has severely been impacted, we are now down to the bar - and then we have to weigh up where BA outranks VS, and that list is a compelling one. Better food, better FQTV programme, raid the larder Club Kitchen, larger route network, membership of OneWorld, the companion voucher that is actually of value for 10k of spend on the credit card, ability to upgrade practically all fares, the 10% shareholder discount, the list goes on... Loyalty has always been an interesting thing to measure and define, but it just got a lot easier.

[buns]

To me the only thing that Vs still has going for it is the staff - but as we all know, that can be a bit hit and miss[n]

When it is good, then it cannot be beaten, but VS lets itself down by not maintaining service standards

buns

quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion
Now one of those has severely been impacted, we are now down to the bar - and then we have to weigh up where BA outranks VS, and that list is a compelling one. Better food, better FQTV programme, raid the larder Club Kitchen, larger route network, membership of OneWorld, the companion voucher that is actually of value for 10k of spend on the credit card, ability to upgrade practically all fares, the 10% shareholder discount, the list goes on... Loyalty has always been an interesting thing to measure and define, but it just got a lot easier.


Thank you Richard for pointing this out. [y]

I am looking at getting a BA Amex now the other arf will keep his VA one. Personally I liked VA because it appeared at one time that on VA anyone was welcome in the premium\upper cabins and all treated the same, a bit special from whatever background you were from you paid your ticket and were treated with friendliness respect and optimism, as opposed to other carriers inc BA where it felt like only stuck up oiks dominated the premium cabins, generalisation I am sure but all the same that was the feeling of the BA brand. If BA get clever with their advertising they may well grab the aspiring travellers from VA as well as the high end pax they seem to aim for ordinarily.

quote:Originally posted by easygoingeezer
as opposed to other carriers inc BA where it felt like only stuck up oiks dominated the premium cabins, generalisation I am sure but all the same that was the feeling of the BA brand.


Its not like that when we are onboard at least[:D]

quote:Originally posted by jaguarpig
quote:Originally posted by easygoingeezer
as opposed to other carriers inc BA where it felt like only stuck up oiks dominated the premium cabins, generalisation I am sure but all the same that was the feeling of the BA brand.


Its not like that when we are onboard at least[:D]


Nor when I am in FIRST. In fact, I often run back to Y with handfuls of tea cakes and surreptitiously distribute them to the most Dickensian waifs.

GJ

quote:Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
quote:Originally posted by jaguarpig
quote:Originally posted by easygoingeezer
as opposed to other carriers inc BA where it felt like only stuck up oiks dominated the premium cabins, generalisation I am sure but all the same that was the feeling of the BA brand.


Its not like that when we are onboard at least[:D]


Nor when I am in FIRST. In fact, I often run back to Y with handfuls of tea cakes and surreptitiously distribute them to the most Dickensian waifs.

GJ


Grinningjackantoinetteapes!

quote:Originally posted by slinky09

Grinningjackantoinetteapes!


Off with my head! [:p]

GJ

[buns]

quote:Originally posted by easygoingeezer
I am looking at getting a BA Amex now the other arf will keep his VA one. Personally I liked VA because it appeared at one time that on VA anyone was welcome in the premium\upper cabins and all treated the same, a bit special from whatever background you were from you paid your ticket and were treated with friendliness respect and optimism, as opposed to other carriers inc BA where it felt like only stuck up oiks dominated the premium cabins, generalisation I am sure but all the same that was the feeling of the BA brand. If BA get clever with their advertising they may well grab the aspiring travellers from VA as well as the high end pax they seem to aim for ordinarily.


EGG

I think you have a very good point there[y][y]

We are all coming to the conclusion that VS has taken its eye off the ball - that is fertile ground for competitors to swoop in and pick up disaffected customers

VS will only have themselves to blame[V]

buns