Question for any VA cabin crew

i was unlucky enough to be booked on baw208 (mia-lhr) last week. after an initial 14 hr delay due to tech fault and crew hour issues we took off and then one hour before landing was told we were going to be diverted due to weather to Madrid. when we landed in Madrid at 11pm local we were put into coaches to the main terminal. once through immigration we were left alone with just one (YES 1) poor lady from Iberia to deal with 300+ angry passengers who had been told nothing about what happens from here. To cut a long story short 2 hours later we were told that the bags would not be coming off the aircraft and we should wait outside the main airport for coaches to take us to an airport. 3 hours later still no evidence of one single BA member of staff or crew.

I dont blame BA for weather but this was truely shocking service. My question is what would Virgin had done in this situation??

pS:Sorry for the rant but still feel frustrated as was travelling with my 3 kids

This is not going to be a good reply, but in all honesty, I can't tell you exactly what VS would do.

This question would best be answered by a member of ground staff as they would know the procedures which crew would not be familiar with.

ok but my main point was that in allk the circumstances it would have been wholly appropriate, in the absense of any BA ground staff at Madrid, for at least one of the BA crew to stay with the passengers until such time as at least the passengers knew what was going on. Very very poor from BA.

The BA crew were clearly way out of hours by this time, so would probably have been take straight to a hotel so they could be given minimum rest (about 11 hours)before taking the aircraft back to LHR.
The same thing has just happned to me as due to LGW being closed we diverted to Prestwick and were then sent to Manchester where the flight terminated and passengers were put on buses down to LGW.
Once landed at an unfamiliar airport, as crew you are at the mercy of the groundstaff and must follow any instructions they give to you. We had to wait another two hours on the aircraft and were then taken to a hotel. As a manager it's important to keep the crew together, especially after such a long and tiring day as you have a duty of care to them. There is no way I would leave a crew-member in the terminal to be ranted at by 300 angry passengers. There is nothing a crew member can do, they are not given any information and do not have the pass required to move around the airport.
BA fly to madrid so really should have had their own groundstaff present or called them in to work. Leaving you with one rep from Iberia really isn't acceptable. Sounds like a total nightmare. Was it just your flight diverted to madrid? I know most of BAs diverts were into Amsterdam.

yes i believe this was the only madrid divert. whilst i fully accept what you say, dont you think that ba had some duty of care to its passengers to ensurethat there was at least some arrangements made?? trust me this one poor women from iberia didnt know what hit her. worse than having people ranting at her she genuinely had no idea information

Absolutely they had a duty of care for you, there should certainly have been more than one member of groundstaff to look after you, does seem very strange. As I say the crew wouldn't have had any additional information to help you with as they were probably just as in the dark as you as to what was happening. Am very surprised BA didn't sort out its own groundstaff to help you (if they have their own uniformed groundstaff at madrid - or do they use Iberia groundstaff?)

[Darren Wheeler]

Did the MIA flight land after the last BA flight had left Madrid?

To be honest it's very difficult to say what any airline would have done because every time something like this happens somethings different! I'm amazed that one woman stayed and listened because if that was me I'd have probably just walked off, it's bad enough one person having a go, nevermind 300.
The groundstaff would have known about the divert, so really should have rounded up some staff to go and help out and let you guys know what was going to happen, whether it was putting you up in hotels or on another flight. Of course there's always the possibility that they were so short staffed this couldn't be done, which actually wouldn't suprise me.

yes the baw diverted plane came in after all the ba flights had landed so im sure there were no ba staff at the airport. the woman from iberia looked petrified and in the end she did walk away from it and frankly i dont blame her. my only comment is this. i would have thought that the captain or chief steward/stewardess should at the least (if nothing else but to show a bit of solidarity) come into the airport with us knowing that we were all stranded. at the end of the day im sure there are procedures preventing this etc etc, but when situations like this occur a gesture like that would have meant so much to those passengers. dont get me wrong im not in any way condoning the treatment of the poor woman from iberia, but i have to tell you i could fully understand why the passengers were so revved up.

The blame lies with the ground crew, not the cabin crew, and if BA have a station in MAD then specifically them. In a previous life I have been called out to attend diverted BA flights landing at my airport even though we had no scheduled BA flights on that day.

The cabin crew are in the same situ as the pax, they know FA in a situ like this.

Of course everyone who flies is an expert

Iain

If you were crew though and had the option of facing 300 angry pax or a nice hotel bed after a long hard day at work, which would you choose?!
Even if there were no BA staff left, there should be someone somewhere that knows something of their operation, even if it meant getting top dog down from their office, or like has been said, someone should have been called in.

sorry if it offends you but it was still very bad form from the ba crew. bearing in mind the pax were already delayed over 24 hours they really ought to have stayed with the pax at least until there was some kind of road map of where the pax where going to be staying etc.

one thing i can assure you is that the ba crew were in their hotels long before any of the ba pax! crew duty or no crew duty this is wrong. and for the record it wasnt the same crew who took the a/c back to base the next evening.



[/quote]

dpscrest,

BA have station manager in Madrid. I say again it would be his/her responsibility to make arrangements for crew and pax. They obviously did make arrangements for crew first as it is easier,but not for pax.
The local BA team would be advised of the diversion for sure. As to why it was badly handled on the ground is not the cabin crews fault.
I agree it is shocking customer service on BA's part and what has been evident in several threads recently is just how badly airlines or any transport mode handle communication when these type of events happen.

Iain

quote:Originally posted by dpscrest
sorry if it offends you but it was still very bad form from the ba crew. bearing in mind the pax were already delayed over 24 hours they really ought to have stayed with the pax at least until there was some kind of road map of where the pax where going to be staying etc.

one thing i can assure you is that the ba crew were in their hotels long before any of the ba pax! crew duty or no crew duty this is wrong. and for the record it wasnt the same crew who took the a/c back to base the next evening.



It is not wrong at all - crew duty hours are there for a reason. The crew should not have had to stay with you in the terminal at all - it is not their job to do that. Everything once you step off the aircraft is the responsibility of the ground staff and it sounds like BA/IB ground staff messed up big time in MAD. Have a go at the ground staff but do not blame the crew as it has absolutely nothing to do with them.

And as for the crew being in their hotels before you - again no big deal. BA probably have a contract with a hotel in Madrid for their normal overnighting crews so that wouldn't have taken too long to sort out.

Crew duty hours are mainly there for flight safety surely.
After the flight may not be such an issue unless there was a quick turnaround.
I believe that VS staff often do go beyond the strict rules & responsibilities.

Interesting that MAN fire crews were out shovelling snow to help keep stands clear last week.
Even baggage handlers and other ground staff helping.
Putting in long hours every day! [^] [^]

quote:Originally posted by Bill S
Crew duty hours are mainly there for flight safety surely.
After the flight may not be such an issue unless there was a quick turnaround.



After any flight, crew must have a minimum amount of rest before being 'in hours' and legal to operate their next duty.

The amount of hours a crew member can work is also based on how much rest they have had and whether or not they are acclimatised to local time (three local nights) before starting a duty.

Bill S is correct. I believe that in these such circumstances common sense would put to aside any strict rules and responsibilities. If its good enough for fire staff at MAN to help clear the snow from the stands its good enough for a captain or senior flight crew to get off the plane to stay with pax ONLY until they know that arrangements have actually been sorted.

The facts are that BA knew 2 hours before landing that the aircraft was being diverted to MAD. On arrival to MAD the airport was literally deserted save for one Iberia rep who didnt speak English and had evenm less of an idea what was happening. PAX were left wandering around in the baggage area for hours then having finally been told that there were no bags - they were told to wait outside the airport in the frezing cold for coaches that would take them to hotels. 2 hours later the coaches departed!!!!!

as i said previously, the same crew DID NOT take the plane back the next day so they were already out of hours. In any event in this specific scenario I completely do not accept the out of hours theory. The captain gets paid enough and should have taken the initative and responsibility to ensure that arrangements were in place before swanning off. Its simple common sense and if nothing else would have averted a PR disaster. I can say with some certainty from my own acute experience of over 20 years in another part of this avaitation industry that the goodwill created had a senior member of crew shown their face would have left the passengers with nobody to blame but the unlucky conditions. I'm afraid BA let themselves down very badly. Moreover by the way they had over 2 hours to make arrangements on the ground before we even landed!!!

I honestly cannot imagine the pax being treated like this by VA. Then again I may be wrong. Sorry for the rant

Crew hours are a LEGAL requirement whether you accept it or not.

I'm acutely aware of crew rest law. And what is your point if the crew didnt opererate the next day?

quote:Originally posted by dpscrest
I'm acutely aware of crew rest law. And what is your point if the crew didnt opererate the next day?


I have no idea why they did not operate the next day - after minimum rest they could legally have done - that is something to take up with BA not any of us. And given the recent uproar from BA crew with management trying to change some of their working conditions, maybe they have an agreement with their union in place regarding what happens after diversions.

honestly think you may have got to the nub of it. more about unions than common sense! still love to think that VA would have handled it better

[honey lamb]

quote:Originally posted by dpscrest
Bill S is correct. I believe that in these such circumstances common sense would put to aside any strict rules and responsibilities. If its good enough for fire staff at MAN to help clear the snow from the stands its good enough for a captain or senior flight crew to get off the plane to stay with pax ONLY until they know that arrangements have actually been sorted.

I think there is a world of difference between fire staff at MAN helping to clear the snow from the ramps and a captain staying with his passengers. The fire crew would have had a vested interest in case their services would be needed in that area. To compare that with a captain or crew to remain with their passengers in a different airport is comparing apples with oranges.

What also seems to have been lost in this discussion is that the captain and crew have already worked for several hours on a long-haul flight. Yes there has been discussion about crew rest but it seem to have been forgotten that the reason it is there is because of the work already done

quote:Originally posted by dpscrest
honestly think you may have got to the nub of it. more about unions than common sense!



Sorry but I think that is totally uncalled for. As was your earlier comment:

quote: The captain gets paid enough and should have taken the initative and responsibility to ensure that arrangements were in place before swanning off.

How do you know he 'swanned off'. He might have been following specific instructions given to him by BA and he could have been disciplied for not following those instructions.

Unions are there to protect their members from employers imposing intollerable working conditions. They also ensure that employers follow the law.

Without the inions all sorts of public protections would not be in place leading to loss of life and permanant injury and disabilty for many, many people. Don't fall for the 'unions are luddites and wont accept change' claptrap that is often spouted in the media.

These are the very same laws that protect you and I as members of the public. Not just in the airline industry but day in day out in all sorts of industries.

For example the number of hours a lorry or bus or train driver can work in a single shift is restricted as is how soon after they have completed one shift they can start the next one - 'rest periods'.

Not even Mr O'Leary has found a way to escape from the laws that restrict pilot hours - and knowing him he has probbaly tried.

They are there for a very good reason - to keep us, the travelling public, safe.

Dpcrest,

When did you arrive in Mad and when did you leave?
What type of a/c did you fly on?

The fact that you waited 2 hrs to get on buses to a hotel is not bad in reality.
You are way off the mark if you think crew should stay behind to hold your hand. BA have proceedures for diverted flights into ab norm airports. You are lucky they had a station there or you would have slept in the terminal.

As for the union remark, it is easy to throw stones from the cheap seats.

Look mate[^]

Crew are there to work flights[:X]

Ground staff are there to take care of you on the ground[oo]

Let the crew do their jobs and let the ground staff do theirs[:)]

BA did what they thought was right, however you do have an opinion which you are entitled to but its not always valid[V]

Would VA have dealt with it in a different way,[:?] who knows but i can tell you one thing, there is no way the crew, or any member of the crew would have stayed with you[oo]

Think your self lucky you flew BA, if it was easy jet the crew would have left you on the plane whilst they cleared off to the hotel[V]