Virgin Atlantic pilots to ballot for strike

My father is worried about the possibility of strikes. He flies out to HKG on 18 July via VS200.

It's ironic, my family avoids BA at all cost cos of their tendency to strike all the time, and the one time we feel VS is so much better, the pilots decide to strike.

Surely having a job at the end of the day with steady income, with a roof over your head and the security knowing you can provide for yourself and family is much better than getting a raise in this economic recession?

Or are the pilots somehow out of touch with reality? Or feel that the economic situation don't apply to them; that they are unique and have immunity? If so, get real.

If they want to strike, go to BA.

Perhaps those so intent on striking should try working for local government...then maybe they'd have a valid case for low pay... no pay rise for 3 years... pension scheme being decimated (don't believe the hype about gold-plated pensions, that exists for about 2 people)... job losses...

Yeah, it must be tough flying places and being paid for it....

Sorry, that wasn't meant to sound bitter and twisted (though maybe...)

catsilversword, its a common misconception that "flying places and being paid for it" is actually fun.especially for long-haul. There are the odd occasions where crews can actually enjoy a very brief time to go and sightsee for a few hours, but more often than not that's only at Christmas when they have to have an extra rest day (which means they aren't with their families on many occasions). A typical long haul flight though is more about sleep management so that they can fly us safely from A to B.
A typical London New York for example means a crew are on minimum rest so they will barely get time to eat and sleep before they return. This, and the constant chopping and changing of flights ....for example one week you may be in Tokyo, and then a few days later LA or New York - plays HAVOC with your circadian rhythms. You may know how bad jetlag is, but imagine being permanently jetlagged. They you have to try and get proper sleep in a hotel where invariably the other guests have no concept that people may be sleeping, and are noisy as hell. Then you have curtains which never close fully so cracks of light make it a nightmare to get some sleep for many -even though they are exhausted from working maybe 16 hours. Its not uncommon for the hotels to be an hour or more drive from the airport too so add that to the time they have to report for duty (allowing extra time for traffic holdups ) and you could be looking at an 19 hour day on long sectors. Some long haul aircraft have crew rest areas (and an extra pilot) so they can try and put their heads down for an hour or so during the flight, which sounds great, but its VERY difficult to force yourself to sleep in these conditions. Along with all this, pilots have very fragmented social lives which causes havoc at home as they rarely know what they will be doing in 4 weeks time. This often makes it a nightmare to do those things we take for granted like taking our wives and kids on holiday at busy periods. PLUS they have to take regular very strict medicals which if they fail means they are out of a job for life in many cases, which coupled with VERY stressful working conditions is a bad combination.PLUS they are re-tested stringently on a regular basis, which to you and me would be like having to retake university degrees, which if you fail means you are grounded or lose your job. PLUS they have to retrain for most new aircraft types their airlines buy (and some unscrupulous low cost carriers make the pilots pay pay around £15,000 EACH time they do this)..and bear in mind to get enough flying hours to fly the big jets or become a captain, many will have been though this appalling system as well as having to foot the £100,000-£130,000 it costs to become a commercial pilot.
And all this so we can travel safely and reliably. Really it is NO fun being a pilot these days, it is EXTREMELY stressful, and crews have to deal with all the delays hassle and risks that we are concerned about when we fly EVERY time they go to work. Shall I go on?

What a shame that the view from the front-end seems to have been completely lost in communication. The issue, from talking to various pilots and viewing several VS internal forums, is that Virgin Atlantic has lost its charm, team morale and everything that they/we ever stood for, perhaps up until 4 years ago. Management communications have been lost in a sea of, well, more managers and this in turn has caused a massive disconnect between those and the front line. Thoughts pursued by staff reps rarely get to the top of this rather confusing management tree. The "sharp end," i.e. flight and cabin crew and engineers, those who often "go the extra mile" are punished for doing so, and are now in constant fear of causing the smallest human error or missunderstanding.

It seems BALPA cannot instigate a dispute about the rather fragile issues raised by the pilots. The possible strike has been portrayed as a pay issue, but the underlying faults within the company that are causing such a high percentage of our team to feel the need to strike, remains the hidden reason.

catsilversword, its a common misconception that "flying places and being paid for it" is actually fun.especially for long-haul. There are the odd occasions where crews can actually enjoy a very brief time to go and sightsee for a few hours, but more often than not that's only at Christmas when they have to have an extra rest day (which means they aren't with their families on many occasions). A typical long haul flight though is more about sleep management so that they can fly us safely from A to B.
A typical London New York for example means a crew are on minimum rest so they will barely get time to eat and sleep before they return. This, and the constant chopping and changing of flights ....for example one week you may be in Tokyo, and then a few days later LA or New York - plays HAVOC with your circadian rhythms. You may know how bad jetlag is, but imagine being permanently jetlagged. They you have to try and get proper sleep in a hotel where invariably the other guests have no concept that people may be sleeping, and are noisy as hell. Then you have curtains which never close fully so cracks of light make it a nightmare to get some sleep for many -even though they are exhausted from working maybe 16 hours. Its not uncommon for the hotels to be an hour or more drive from the airport too so add that to the time they have to report for duty (allowing extra time for traffic holdups ) and you could be looking at an 19 hour day on long sectors. Some long haul aircraft have crew rest areas (and an extra pilot) so they can try and put their heads down for an hour or so during the flight, which sounds great, but its VERY difficult to force yourself to sleep in these conditions. Along with all this, pilots have very fragmented social lives which causes havoc at home as they rarely know what they will be doing in 4 weeks time. This often makes it a nightmare to do those things we take for granted like taking our wives and kids on holiday at busy periods. PLUS they have to take regular very strict medicals which if they fail means they are out of a job for life in many cases, which coupled with VERY stressful working conditions is a bad combination.PLUS they are re-tested stringently on a regular basis, which to you and me would be like having to retake university degrees, which if you fail means you are grounded or lose your job. PLUS they have to retrain for most new aircraft types their airlines buy (and some unscrupulous low cost carriers make the pilots pay pay around £15,000 EACH time they do this)..and bear in mind to get enough flying hours to fly the big jets or become a captain, many will have been though this appalling system as well as having to foot the £100,000-£130,000 it costs to become a commercial pilot.
And all this so we can travel safely and reliably. Really it is NO fun being a pilot these days, it is EXTREMELY stressful, and crews have to deal with all the delays hassle and risks that we are concerned about when we fly EVERY time they go to work. Shall I go on?

I appreciate what you are saying and whilst I don't share the same view as catsilverwood (I know it's not a life of permanent holidays) if it is that bad no one forces you to do this for a living so my sympathy is almost non existent.

Hi shg

Totally agree with you, regarding the official reason for the strike being 'pay' - you are 100% correct that was only one of the reasons, but under UK law a strike can only be called for one specific reason, so the associated issues cant be referred to publicly, which distorts public opinion unfortunately.

If the public were fully aware of whats been going on behind the scenes for the past few years , the vast majority would probably be much more supportive of the pilots cause. They have been busting their backsides not to be forced into a strike and deserve a lot of respect for hanging back as long as they did, hoping that management would follow up on their promises of improving standards of communications and mutual respect and dignity.

I hope SRB will discover for himself the depth of the problems and intervene postively for all concerned

Hi daywalker

Thanks for the comments, the thing is with a career as a pilot, its its highly specialised, and more often than not a lifetime career due to the skill sets not being transferrable.

In the past 10-20 years or so there has been massive erosion of working conditions, and huge increases in stress levels and pilots have little choice but stick in the same career. Moving between airlines has a VERY high cost as you lose promotion seniority, and will be first to be let go if any redundancies happen (which they do on a remarkably regular 7 year cycle). So for example, a first officer who could be due for a command (i.e. become a Captain), who leaves to work for Ryanair, would currently have to wait possibly as long as 26 years to get the same level of seniority. So the decisions were often made long ago when they decided to become pilots -especially Captains who have to build up a large number of flying hours. Without these highly skilled, hugely experienced people flying us around, we would find accident rates increasing substantially. Unfortunately the travelling public have become complacent about the value of such skills because of the huge effort the crews, engineers and the relevant authorities have historically made to keep flying ultra safe. This trend is now showing signs of reversing due to highly competitive environments forcing a total rethink in all areas of operations, some of which may turn out to be very unwise in the long term.

I understand that VS conducts regular internal surveys on satisfaction with other teams, and that flight operations, the folk that crew deal with most regularly, last scored a 6% rating. Talking with folk this seems to be a particularly weak area of VS management, and creates huge dissatisfaction, frustration, and ill feeling with crew of all types.

Then there are issues with how VS in recent years has rewarded its burgeoning manager class without doling out the same to front line staff. This bubbled up with CC last year ...

We're all quick to hit out at strikers, often not knowing the full range issues that have built up over years, how poor management often is, and how badly they can treat staff, and then how inequities can arise.

A strike will hit some people badly, and that is sad. But before we jump on a podium from the point of view of one (of any perspective), I'll be pleased if this discussion carries on in a measured and holistic way.

I should probably mention also that there is another notable EU based airline currently in last minute talks to avert a stike on very similar grounds to Virgin. I will let everyone know the second any official information is released to the public. Sorry I cant tell you more at the moment.

Slinky09..I couldnt agree more....well said

Hi daywalker

Thanks for the comments, the thing is with a career as a pilot, its its highly specialised, and more often than not a lifetime career due to the skill sets not being transferrable.

In the past 10-20 years or so there has been massive erosion of working conditions, and huge increases in stress levels and pilots have little choice but stick in the same career. Moving between airlines has a VERY high cost as you lose promotion seniority, and will be first to be let go if any redundancies happen (which they do on a remarkably regular 7 year cycle). So for example, a first officer who could be due for a command (i.e. become a Captain), who leaves to work for Ryanair, would currently have to wait possibly as long as 26 years to get the same level of seniority. So the decisions were often made long ago when they decided to become pilots -especially Captains who have to build up a large number of flying hours. Without these highly skilled, hugely experienced people flying us around, we would find accident rates increasing substantially. Unfortunately the travelling public have become complacent about the value of such skills because of the huge effort the crews, engineers and the relevant authorities have historically made to keep flying ultra safe. This trend is now showing signs of reversing due to highly competitive environments forcing a total rethink in all areas of operations, some of which may turn out to be very unwise in the long term.

Well I'm not convinced about the scaremongering over safety but I hope you do get what you want (I am assuming you are a VS pilot) or will at least be willing to compromise. I do have respect for pilots and all aircraft crews y) A strike won't be good for Virgin and in turn that is not good for Virgin staff!

[Nottingham Nick]

...Then there are issues with how VS in recent years has rewarded its burgeoning manager class without doling out the same to front line staff. This bubbled up with CC last year ....

Slinky. I completely with your post, but VS are by no means unique in over rewarding the manager class and screwing the people who actually do the work - this is mirrored throughout the public sector and a lot of the private sector as well.

I don't want to turn this into a 'bash the bosses' thread, but it is about time that the fat cat culture, that is growing out of control in this country, was addressed.

Nick

Hi Daywalker

Thanks Actually I'm not a VS pilot, I dont even work for an airline, though I have done in the past.

The safety issue is a tricky one, but I can assure you there are people out there - myself included - who are doing their utmost to ensure things don't start going backwards due to unwise or poorly informed commercial decisions, or regulatory control that is always under huge pressure to keep up with the rapidly changing market conditions

I write this while anxiously waiting to see if the family holiday which has been saved for over a long period of time will be wrecked. Emotions inevitably run high in this type of scenario and I don’t know the facts so will condemn neither pilots nor management. However, my view, for what it is worth is as follows. Either the pilots are greedy and just don’t get the current financial climate, or management are incompetent slavedrivers who have had this coming, or the truth is somewhere in the middle. Whatever the reason, between them they have made a huge mess of this and my faith in Virgin is now in very poor shape. If this strike goes ahead I will never again buy any Virgin product of any type, be it flight, media, train ticket or cola drink.

Here's a little insight into one of the issues that is worth reading:
http://www.balpa.org/Campaigns/Flight-Time-Limitations-(1).aspx

I also STRONGLY recommend reading the book "Highest Duty" by the Captain of the airbus that made a forced landing in the Hudson River - "Chesley Sullenberger". Its a very enjoyable read and gives a very clear insight of the important issues facing pilots and flight safety in the highly competitive airline business.

I should point out that VS currently have one of the highest safety standards in the industry due to the huge continual efforts of crews, engineers and pretty much all of the company

Hi Gregorian boy, I think all of us here share your sentiments. The VS pilots agreed to forgo pay increases in 2008 until the company had weathered the financial storm at that time, on the clear understanding and full agreement with management that when things improved, the balance would be redressed. What appears to have happened is the 3 years from 2008-2011 have been omitted from the pay offer, which substantially devalues the pay offer currently on offer from VS management in real terms, which is already WAY below current and projected inflation. Its worth mentioning that when VS were making crews redundant in 2009, some managers - some of whom were of the 'revolving door' variety were awarded very very large pay increases.

Also, the current VS managements pay offer is subject to contractual changes which mean they are giving with one hand, and taking more back with the other AND worsening working conditions. Sadly the press dont seem to be able to include all these important details when they stir up bad feelings in order to sell more newspapers

Managers are the scourge of any modern day company. Iirc, many managers were awarded bonuses last year whilst other staff were still 'doing what's best' to help VS through a bad patch. That kind of thing does tend to antagonise people, and so it should. When you look at VS since SRB left the helm, it seems directionless. There's talk of expansion but no new routes (come on Vancouver). There are aircraft orders that are then deferred or leased out prior to delivery (the current a330 fleet for example. 2 delivered the rest least to a Chinese airline) and finally, there's a lack of investment in fleet renewal/refitment. In fairness, the poor economic conditions have led to this, but travellers on the LGW fleet will still feel short changed. There's no continuity across the fleet, with 4 Different IFE systems in use. By comparison Air Canada's entire fleet bar 3 have one IFE.

VS is still different to most airlines, it still has that sparkle that I and the rest of you on this board love. But the sparkles getting dimmer, and if VS isn't careful, it'll go out forever.

Hi Jess-b,

I agree a lot of managers fall into that cataegory, but a few good ones, and some excellent ones still exist - some are at VS, but I feel they are becoming the minority sadly.

And yes, Virgin's USP is its sparkle, and that requires very strong,fair and respectful leadership, which filters down to every single employee, all of whom are as important as the others. I sincerely hope its not too late to bring that sparkle back...

Agreed C22.
The key word is Respect. Without Respect in all directions there is little hope for the future.

Perhaps the best course of action is to talk to everyone at the airline and ask a simple question. 'What's wrong with this company?' Ask that of senior pilots, then first officers, then cabin crew and maintenance staff. See what they say. Then ask the new hires, 'Why did you join VS?' I'd wager that the answers will be similar in some way. 'What's wrong?' will bemoan the loss of VS's personality to some extent whist 'Why did you join VS?' will be 'because of its personality.' I know its old school stuff, talking to the people on the factory floor so to speak, but unless everyone knows what the problems are, both from staff and managers, you can't move on and fix it.

Right Sermon over.

Best Wishes,
Jess B

(Reverend) Jess,

I believe Virgin actually did a fairly extensive flight and cabin crew survey fairly recently, but whether the wording or questions were not correctly geared to get a true perception of feelings - or that management just misinterpreted the results, it seems that their concerns were not acted upon sufficiently, or possibly even at all.

This is where my hunch that their HR strategy is flawed somewhere comes in.... and thats not so much a criticism as an observation as HR in Airlines is very VERY different from most other industries..and if you dont FULLY understand what it's like to be flight crew or cabin crew (or anyone else in the business for that matter), and have experienced the same conditions on a long term, regular basis, its unlikely that your decisions and strategies will be successful, and will do more harm than good. This applies even more when trying to adopt 'lean' principles, which can (but not always) work fine in other industries, but to do it in an airline you need to be exceptionally aware and experienced in ALL aspects of how the airline infrastructure works. And with respect to crews, you need to be incredibly well versed in the effects of sleep deprivation and fatigue management.

Its also interesting to note that I believe they for some reason did not choose to share the results of the flight crew surveys with the crews themselves . Since then it has emerged somehow - as a few people here have already mentioned - that the crews rated the approval level of their (crucial)flight ops dept. at only 6%. I dont know any of the other figures I'm afraid, but that in itself indicates there's an issue.

(the pulpit is all yours...)

(Reverend) Jess,

I believe Virgin actually did a fairly extensive flight and cabin crew survey fairly recently, but whether the wording or questions were not correctly geared to get a true perception of feelings - or that management just misinterpreted the results, it seems that their concerns were not acted upon sufficiently, or possibly even at all.

This is where my hunch that their HR strategy is flawed somewhere comes in.... and thats not so much a criticism as an observation as HR in Airlines is very VERY different from most other industries..and if you dont FULLY understand what it's like to be flight crew or cabin crew (or anyone else in the business for that matter), and have experienced the same conditions on a long term, regular basis, its unlikely that your decisions and strategies will be successful, and will do more harm than good. This applies even more when trying to adopt 'lean' principles, which can (but not always) work fine in other industries, but to do it in an airline you need to be exceptionally aware and experienced in ALL aspects of how the airline infrastructure works. And with respect to crews, you need to be incredibly well versed in the effects of sleep deprivation and fatigue management.

Its also interesting to note that I believe they for some reason did not choose to share the results of the flight crew surveys with the crews themselves . Since then it has emerged somehow - as a few people here have already mentioned - that the crews rated the approval level of their (crucial)flight ops dept. at only 6%. I dont know any of the other figures I'm afraid, but that in itself indicates there's an issue.

(the pulpit is all yours...)

Thank you Brother (sorry, its all the black clothing I wear) I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

It all comes down to perception and communication. The fact that management thought it better to not reveal their 6% approval rating says that denial is far easier than confronting the issue. Plus, they do realise that with a rating that low, no one would have been surprised at the result. Crews talk! ii)


Problems will always arise if those taking the decisions don't understand how it will affect those involved. If you've not spent a 12 hour flight followed by jet-lag, little rest and an accompanying return journey within 48 hours, then you won't understand the pressures both cabin crew and the guys up front have to deal with.

Running an airline isn't easy, and its been said that no one goes into the airline business to make money. But if there's a disconnect between those running the financials and those doing the job, then misunderstandings will lead to problems which then leads to strikes and in the end a lot of animosity that'll blind some and prevent both sides fixing it.

phew, my fingers are getting tired now. xx(

Best Wishes,
Reverend Jess B :X

Any news?

[Darren Wheeler]

Any news?

Not a peep.