Freedom Menu

Imagine if I've had a long day at work and didn't get a chance to eat at the Clubhouse but I'm really tired and want to nap before I eat, I'd either have to wake up and eat with every one else or settle for tomato on a stick, finger sandwiches and probably bit of cheese.

Even the express breakfast option. I may be speaking for myself, but I like to have big breakfasts. I remember when on even short night flights, I could wake up to a full English breakfast, but not any more.

Ah but that's all your fault Tinuks for not fitting in with the new VS the customer comes way down the list model of service!

VS expect pax to have eaten in the CH prior to boarding - they even say it on the website -

On our shorter night flights from destinations like New York and Boston, you’ve probably already dined in our Clubhouse and would rather focus on sleep.

*

and then to use revivals on landing!


* of course some of us want to and will do both

But of course Tonty. Sadly, no revivals at DXB (VS400) or LOS (VS651) which are my night flights.

I guess I'd have to get to the airport early enough to have a proper meal at CH or shared lounge and maybe sneak a few bread rolls and save those for brekkie.

Dare I say it again, naff.

Dare! Dare!

I used the freedom menu a couple of times on the flight over to the USA, when I'd boarded pretty hungover and needed the sleep before I could even contemplate food....

Hi All,

Our note about changes to the Upper Class meal experience has generated a lot of response and as we’ve followed it, stimulated internal debate as well. We are naturally disappointed to hear some of your feedback; however, we are taking notice. A number of questions have been raised also, so we thought we’d give you some of the background as to why we’ve made the decisions we have.

During the two year development of the new meal experience we reviewed every aspect of the existing service to see what worked for our passengers, crew and operationally.

To assist us in making sure we improved our meal experience, a lot of our time was spent analysing a whole host of data. This included cabin crew reports and our Xplane questionnaires, of which we receive about 100,000 every year. We also conducted over 60 comprehensive trial flights right across our network.

This research helped us to identify that more interaction with our crew and the quality of service we offered were most important to your overall satisfaction, so we understandably focused our attention on enhancing these elements of our experience.

The decision to remove the ‘Freedom menu’ wasn’t made lightly. It received a huge amount of reflection as part of this process and while we realised that this element was very important to some of you, it became very apparent through observations we made onboard that the vast majority of our Upper Class passengers preferred to eat their meals at the beginning of their flight and didn’t make use of this service.

Our observations were backed up when we analysed the consumption data of the food we loaded to cater for our Freedom service. No one likes waste, and we found we were consistently throwing away between 10%-15% of food that was not being eaten.

Knowing that you’d prefer more interaction with our crew, and to enhance the quality of the services we provided, this level of food wastage meant it was an obvious area where we could refocus our resources. We’ve replaced a service that was only popular with a small number of passengers with new additional services on most flights. The controversial cheese and port service is one such example, designed to give crew the opportunity to interact in the cabin, rather than running relays backwards and forwards to the galley.

Saying that, it’s important to note that freedom to dine still exists. On flights where the service has historically proved the most popular, we’ve provided our new ‘Graze’ menu which can be ordered from at time during your flight.

We do remain proud of our new service and I’d encourage more of you to share your thoughts as you come to experience it onboard (it’s only 14 days old today) and we will continue to listen to the discussion.

[preiffer]

Having filled out many, many, xplane forms - I've not once recalled a specific food question other than my opinion of the quality of the food and service - so a very broad brush must be being used.

And I'm struggling to understand how wastage figures indicate take-up of freedom, given they were the exact same meals you could eat in normal service? Unless you mean the light bites, which is the equivalent of the Graze section? And, further to that point - I can't remember the last time I was *offered* the freedom option by crew, so apart from those who asked for it specifically (and hence held it as a valuable addition!) - I'm not surprised the "feedback" from crew was that not many used it.

Evidently American Airlines must have asked some very different questions of their customers....

I've only ever flown UC twice from JFK-LHR and LHR-Shanghai.

However on both of those flights the 'Freedom-ness' of the menu was not mentioned. In fact the FSM didn't speak to us at all on either flight, but then that's by-the-by. However on the JFK flight I was able to get an 'express supper' salad mid-flight because I was hungry so went to the galley and asked for it. This seemed to be no trouble at all for the crew. Still looking forward to LHR-LAX for UC trip number 3 in August!

Surely if someone boarded a flight and said "I'd like the beef but I'm not hungry right now, please can you put me one aside so I can have it at X time?" there would be some common sense applied and the crew would be OK with that?

Thanks for the response, and I for one am glad that this resulted in some heart searching within Crawley towers. However, some questions:

- In your analysis was there a difference in opinion about the freedom menu between irregular and frequent fliers (being a latter, I'm a freedomer, but have never been asked)?
- Is the wastage purely associated with the freedom to dine option?

Also, I don't equate with graze = freedom. A mini burger and a packet of crisps is not a meal.

Flying to New York next week, San Francisco the week after, then New York, then LA, so I'll certainly provide more feedback. However, I am not looking forward to my VS19, eating the main meal at effectively 4 am SF time then trying to get into time zone locally with dinner does not, to me, make for fun.

Reading the response from Kiwibrit, I honestly don't think that VS have the faintest comprehension of the demographic of the vast majority of forum members. To come onto this site and try to blindside its members with corporate-speak and PR jargon demonstrates a niaveity that is at best pitiful, and at worst divisive.

If your passenger surveys truly indicated that passengers want more interaction with the crew, then why not simply put in place measures to ensure Au and high level frequent flyers are actually acknowledged onboard, or that the crew do not simply make a whistlestop tour of the cabin when they introduce themselves. By developing a meal service that includes forced interactions, like the absurd cheese trolley, then it just becomes false; it looses any remaining shreds of spontinaity that may have once been there.

I think the reaction of members on here actually reflects a deeper truth, that VS doesn't seem to be able to accept; that it's passengers - and arguably we are some of the most loyal - just don't believe what VS says anymore. The years of over-promising/under-delivering and PR-centric decisions have taken thier toll, and it will take years to turn that around.

Thanks for getting back to us with some sort of reply. I say some 'sort' because it really is (no offence intended) a non-reply (rather like a lot of the responses on the VS FB page)

100,000 surveys? How many were from Upper Class?

I can't recall the questions but if Paul says there were none about using the freedom menu (or not) then I'd say it's not a particularly accurate survey.

Food Waste is caused by many factors - it can come down to whats on the menu and the pax on a particular flight or even is someone has eaten in the CH so that they don't want to eat on the plane - something which VS actually encourages!

And if there were items from the freedom menu still in the carts then why not offer them with the afternoon tea as I'm sure someone would have eaten them!

I for one don't wish to shoot the messenger - I'm glad that someone from VS has taken the time, and is brave enough(!), to engage with us, so I wouldn't want to give that person too hard a time and discourage them from engaging in the future.

However, I must make two points.

1) Is it possible (i.e., I think it's likely) that many UC passengers who didn't use the freedom menu simply did not know about it? I only knew of it because of this forum (yes, I know it was on the website, but only discovered that after the event). I think it likely that the passengers that seemed to want to eat as soon as possible are simply accustomed to eating when it arrives, and went along with it, not realising that they actually had a choice in when to eat.

2) I did ask for a meal later and was told "no, we're serving dinner now" on one flight. So even though the "freedom" option was available on that flight, the crew didn't think so, or weren't prepared to go the extra mile and let me have food later on.

I don't doubt research was done prior to a new service being introduced, I simply question some of the key assumptions and conclusions.

Not sure whether it's worth saying this, but here goes...

Personally I think some people are being a bit harsh on the OP, and the reaction to the changes strikes me as a bit OTT. I say that as someone who, on the other forum thread about this, commented specifically on the withdrawal of the Freedom service and how disappointing it was!

Kiwibrit's response here might not satisfy everyone (or indeed anyone) but it does at least give some reasoning for the changes and I welcome that. I don't personally agree that interaction with crew is the most important factor -- I would rather have cheese on a plate and freedom to dine when I want, but I can accept the possibility that I am in a minority! I also accept that the company can offer the service it wants to, and that I can fly AA if I want to take advantage of their dine-on-demand service.

Not for the first time (e.g. the recent PE/Y bubble affair... ahem) I think that some people here are confusing this forum's membership with the VS customer base as a whole. We are a self-selecting bunch of people who have an interest in flying and the nitty gritty detail of service, seats, status, and mileage accumulation. We might believe what we believe very passionately, and for very good reasons. But we might also be untypical, and indeed our loyalty to VS might paradoxically make us less important -- they will be looking for incremental changes to win new custom whilst retaining the old, and unless people are going to stop flying VS because of all of this they will presumably have gambled correctly.

Anyway... my next UC flight is in a couple of weeks. I look forward to trying it all out...

1. Could you not argue that food wastage may increase following the removal of the Freedom Menu? Take the scenario that an UC passenger has a meal when they arrive in the Clubhouse,wants a meal on the flight but not as soon as they board. They may not have any room for food when the scheduled meal service is being served and will therefore rely on graze "snacks" thus wasting a meal that previously may have been eaten later in the flight.

2. If all the information available does "warrant" a removal of the Freedom Menu, why isn't something more innovative/exciting introduced? Most companies remove service but introduce 1 or 2 new services which are more exciting. Many talk of pens, polos and other services which have also been removed,why not bring something back?

3. How can you measure true customer feedback on the Freedom Menu if (as mentioned above) many weren't aware of such service?

AT240 - you make some very valid points.

However, I am starting to make that very choice of which you speak.

I may book VS again, but only to try to maximise my miles balance, that is, if I can get reward flights availability.

These may be my last flights on VS however, unless they impress me so much with the service on these flights that I re-consider.

As I've posted elsewhere, I still have a degree of loyalty to VS, possibly emotionally driven rather than any logic or value driven decision, but my head is ruling my heart now and I am making the hard decision to move to another airline for the majority of my flying going forward.

Maybe I'm a drop in the ocean, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking like this.

Time will tell.

As I've posted elsewhere, I still have a degree of loyalty to VS, possibly emotionally driven rather than any logic or value driven decision, but my head is ruling my heart now and I am making the hard decision to move to another airline for the majority of my flying going forward.

Maybe I'm a drop in the ocean, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking like this.

No, no your not the only one.

My last three trips to the US (not counting the last one which was on miles) have been on DL and LX (twice) and as I showed in the TRs they offered great service and good food and good IFE too.

Yes I did miss the CH but they did have perfectly reasonable lounges.

Above all they were cheaper than VS - and no they wern't sale fares.

I will definitly have to make one more VS flight to use up my miles but after that who knows !

[preiffer]

Simple question: what exactly, specifically and directly did VS *gain* by removing the freedom service?

The "wastage" argument is flawed beyond even acknowledging it as such - an absolutely unconnected and irrelevant factor as it's the very same food stock (and as pointed out, this move may increase wastage). If nobody wanted to make use of it, fine, they don't have to - if people did, it was possibly an important flexibility to them. Either way, I don't see how it costs more than a few incremental pence (if that) to have *available* on the flight.

So, other than upsetting those (small number of) customers who DID value it as a differentiator in their choice of airline - what does the removal directly achieve?

Simple question: what exactly, specifically and directly did VS *gain* by removing the freedom service?

The "wastage" argument is flawed beyond even acknowledging it as such - an absolutely unconnected and irrelevant factor as it's the very same food stock (and as pointed out, this move may increase wastage). If nobody wanted to make use of it, fine, they don't have to - if people did, it was possibly an important flexibility to them. Either way, I don't see how it costs more than a few incremental pence (if that) to have *available* on the flight.

So, other than upsetting those (small number of) customers who DID value it as a differentiator in their choice of airline - what does the removal directly achieve?

I'm glad it's not just you who is struggling to understand this particular rationale.

How does, essentially, removing the question of 'would you like to eat now, or later?' increase the amount of waste food? Regardless of when I eat - be it at the designated scoff time, or at my leisure - its not as if I shall be consuming any less, or more. Equally, by imposing a uniform meal time on some passengers, it's entirely possible that they will feel obliged to order a meal, and then not eat half of it because they wern't particularly hungry, but felt forced into eating at that set time.

...and please, don't try and palm us off with the 'Graze' option. A bite sized nibble isn't going to replicate the option of a full meal at a time of my choosing, and it's patronising to suggest otherwise.

Could these whole debate be solved by simply adding something into the menu that says - " should you not wish to dine at this time please let the crew know ". ... there is a whole new service And as I stated earlier - I don't know what the Crew have been trained but isn't that just customer service if you wish to dine later it's not that hard to say something - they put aside what you want and serve it later. It doesn't have to have a big fanfare about it. - in reality the majority of ppl on all my flights in j seem to eat and if it's one or 2 during the flight that eat separately then where is the issue . ?

I guess it's just about asking the crew to be flexible !

Could these whole debate be solved by simply adding something into the menu that says - " should you not wish to dine at this time please let the crew know ". ...

...

I guess it's just about asking the crew to be flexible !

But that was what the Freedom Menu was ! The ability to say to the CC "I'll have my meal in X hours please"

VS have taken away the flexibility that was there before.

[Pete]

sfolhr, that would seem sensible enough, but I'm guessing the reason is that crew numbers are as small as they can be, so with breaks and what not, there just isn't the flexibility to serve outside of the normal food run.

I'm not terribly fussed about the loss of the Freedom Menu personally, but a little tired of the dressing up of the change as an enhancement. Good to have another (non-marketing) explanation, although there are some very valid points which undermine the reasons given of wasted food. I'd been interested to know whether we've missed an important point there.

My next flight is in four weeks, and there are some very simple criteria that will make me happy. (1) The veggie option is edible, (2) The bar isn't covered in paperwork so I can use it as intended, and (3) My seat isn't broken. Other than that, bonus points will be scored if the FSM says 'welcome back' since I have an Au card, and there are no crying babies in the A section. The cheese trolley is unimportant in the big picture, as were the little red cushions. The only thing I really miss is a decent amenity kit, but clearly not enough to switch airlines just yet. YMMV.

I had a discussion with a BA AU who's only ever flown VS once and that was several years ago (and interestingly he's the one that convinced me to try VS UC). He said the service was absolutely fabulous from the limo service to the washbag (which doesn't exist anymore) and the freedom menu which allowed him to nap and wake up without having to feel that he was begging for food.

I cannot imagine that any fare paying customer would want to feel like he or she will be putting out the CC by asking for the meal to be served a little later than other pax.

On the wastage excuse, enough has been said on that so I won't belabour the issue but if I don't want to eat immediately, and I get hungry later but all you offer me is something to graze on (I think I'll dedicate the next paragraph to the word "graze") will the main meal still not be wasted? Or are they going to reduce the number of meals available to serve and instead give us more to graze on?

Now to the word "graze". I know it also means to snack but the first thing that pops into my mind when I hear that word is cows or maybe sheep. (Perhaps I should just say livestock)at pasture. I don't know if this is a tongue in cheek homage to the Cowshed but all I think when I hear it is chomping on grass.

Simple question: what exactly, specifically and directly did VS *gain* by removing the freedom service?

Well, kiwibrit said that crew were surveyed as well as passengers. Like others, my theory is that crews didn't like it. I can kind of understand that. I don't recall it being pushed at all on my UC flights.

So what does VS gain? Presumably it frees crew to do other things (push round a cheese trolley ) or makes them happy in some other way. And as you pointed out, it might save a few pence here and there.

i think whilst its not advertised ppl should try asking if they could have their meal saved for later and gather the responses from there. then lets garner some evidence to support it has an uptake and create feedback ? x

I'm trying not to sound naive but i understand the concept of alienating one alienating all. and all the crews i have had on flights have always been accommodating. admittedly i have not experienced the new service first hand. but hope to do so in the near future.

i think whilst its not advertised ppl should try asking if they could have their meal saved for later and gather the responses from there. then lets garner some evidence to support it has an uptake and create feedback ? x

I'm trying not to sound naive but i understand the concept of alienating one alienating all. and all the crews i have had on flights have always been accommodating. admittedly i have not experienced the new service first hand. but hope to do so in the near future.

I hate to repeat myself, but I do think your being naive, and seem to be ignoring all the comments on here with regards to the new service. It has already been stated that one member of this forum asked for thier meal to be served later, and was told 'No'. It has also be stated on Facebook by the VS social team that meals are served at specific times, and the freedom elememt - with a little f - has been made totally defunct.

Feel free however to ask the question onboard, however I suspect the answer will be a 'No'.

[fozzyo]

It is a shame to see the end of the Freedom service - not that is is something I ever used.

But it is nice to see that they are trying to increase crew interaction with passengers. I just think they are missing opportunities that cost nothing to implement (god knows how many times I have said this). Ensuring Gold and Silver card holders welcomed onboard by name, the FSM introducing themselves to the Gold Card holders (by name ideally). Costs bugger all and is very simple to implement. Ensure FSM's are reminded to do it and to remind their crew during flight briefings.

These tiny little actions will go so much further then banging down the aisle getting in peoples way with a trolley.

Mat

[Scrooge]

Just to touch on the wastage thing again.

I look at it a slightly different way, looking at the past UC menus it becomes clear (at least to me) that there is going to be wastage, some of the food offered is dire (though it has improved of late) and would not be ordered by anyone, so you end up with wastage.

Offer good food and the wastage goes down.

I really could not care less about the freedom menu going away, but as Pete points out, it is the spin that is being put on it that annoys me.