Update re compensation for involuntary downgrade I am fuming

I posted a few weeks ago about the fact Virgin had spoiled the start of my holiday (paid £800 at airport to upgrade but spent 2 hours sorting it out as 1 child had to sit on their own downstairs) and the end of it (downgraded me from premium to economy while OH and kids still in premium). They have now managed to completely pee me off tonight as well. Just got the wonderful reply from them which I will copy you in on below. This can not be right I paid £295 to upgrade from economy to premium when I booked my Virgin holiday 18 mths earlier - surely that have to give me that back at least. Can someone please help me and give me some idea what to write back. I feel like telling them to stick their offer up their you know whats I am fuming!!!!

Dear Ms Lester

Thank you once again for taking the time to write to Steve Ridgway. My apologies for the unintentional delay in our reply. I have now received all of the information that I required to offer a full response.

I was concerned to read of all of the difficulties that you experienced at Gatwick before your flight to Orlando. I realise how disappointing it must have been for you all to lose valuable time in the V Room. However, the worry of not knowing if we would be able to seat you all together must have only compounded this further. I have passed your valid comments to our airport managers to ensure that we handle things better in the future.

I cannot begin to imagine how upsetting it must have been for you all when you were downgraded to our Economy cabin on your flight home. If we have overbooked the seats in your class of travel, the first thing we do is ask if there are any passengers that are happy to be downgraded in return for compensation. Occasionally (although this rarely happens) we may have to downgrade you against your will because no one has volunteered. If this happens we refund 75% of your ticket for the downgraded sector. This is in line with EU regulations.

I have contacted our refunds team to establish the amount of the refund that they would be processing for the 75% refund of the downgraded sector. They have advised that this amount is £255.

Instead of this amount, I would like to offer you the ‘voluntary downgrade’ package. This would be £215 for the difference between Premium Economy and Economy fare plus ONE of the following:

£250 off the price of a published fare on any scheduled flight operated on a Virgin Atlantic aircraft

OR

£250 off of the brochure price of a future Virgin Holiday departing from the UK

OR

25000 Flying Club miles

As you can see, the ‘voluntary package’ offers so much more than what you have been offered to date. Please let me know if you would like me to go ahead with this for you, and which of the above options you would prefer and I shall happily arrange this for you.

Once again, Ms Lester, I am so sorry that we let you all down. I very much hope that in time you will choose to include us in your travel plans as we would love the chance to try and regain your confidence.

Kind regards

xxxxxx Staff member name removed by mod as per site rules... Nick
Customer Liaison Manager
On Behalf of Steve Ridgway, Chief Executive

I'm not surprised, you can sleep easy in the knowledge the airport managers have been passed details in order to improve standards! I was literally about to book 3 UC tickets to San Fran for Feb and was debating which Airline to use as the price is virtually the same - VA customer services have just made my mind up, it's over to the dark side for me. Hope you get a satisfactory resolution.

I am perhaps being a little naive, but I would be happy with what they have offered as a goodwill gesture.
However, if the problem is that you have been completely "turned off" VA because of this trip, and no longer want to fly with them again, to reply with that fact. A goodwill gesture for an airline you're not willing to fly with is worthless! I would write an email back thanking for the offer but as you no longer wish to fly with VA, the 75% would suffice.
If i've completely missed why you are fuming, apologies! Please do tell!

Sorry you are missing the point. I had paid for myself, Oh and 2 kids to fly home PE at an extra cost of £295 each. They had oversold PE and sold my seat to someone else and made me sit in economy whilst the rest of my family sat in PE. I paid £295 for an upgrade I didn't get yet they only give me £255 back so I pay £40 for the upset of sitting on my own in a lower class seat ( i booked my hol 18 mths in advance). So no I am not impressed. If it is OK for airlines to do this I assume they can oversell UC and PE on every flight, downgrade people to economy and make even more money by giving them back less than they paid for their upgrade.
If thats how Virgin treat their Rockstars I am glad I am an accountant.

One assumes the discount doesn't take into account tax and surcharges based on your numbers. In that case it implies VH paid VS next to nothing for your Y seat on top of those charges. Either that or they have their sums wrong. I imagine it's pretty unusual that a 75% discount works out to be less than the differential between W and Y

Am I right that I should have got 75% of the total cost of the flight (Economy cost plus premium upgrade)? Is it the price VH pay VA for the flight or the advertised price for that flight? There is no breakdown on my invoice (except for the PE upgrade) so I can not tell how much of the adult price is for flights.

Can anyone suggest how to reply to the email.

I wonder if it's worth complaint to VH too. I accept that it's VS fault as they oversold PE, however, your points relating to the v-room and overall package holiday were associated with VH.

Just a thought that you may get a further offer from VH to compensate for the difference.

Am I right that I should have got 75% of the total cost of the flight (Economy cost plus premium upgrade)? Is it the price VH pay VA for the flight or the advertised price for that flight? There is no breakdown on my invoice (except for the PE upgrade) so I can not tell how much of the adult price is for flights.

Can anyone suggest how to reply to the email.

You need to simpy state that you paid X for an at the airport upgrade but that they are only refunding Y which may be technically correct is morally wrong. (though actually 75% of £295 is £ 221 !)

It could be they did not realise this then they did the calculation.

Stay measured. Simply state you are very upset and that you feel VS is wrong in its calculation.

Thank them for the offer of the additional compensation but (unless you want to take it) you would prefer ££ rather than vouchers or miles.

I am assuming I should get back 75% of the total flight cost not just the cost of the upgrade. Unless Virgin are saying the economy return flight only cost £45 (£255-£221 = £34 =75% of flight) .

I wonder if some of the confusion is that you booked a package through Virgin Holidays, and some 6 months before tickets would have gone on sale. Although you paid £295 for an upgrade, that was to VH. So theoretically VH may have paid VA £340 for that leg in PE. 75% of that would give you the £255 you have been offered.

I think as others have said, it might be worth asking VH for the refund - that was who your contract was with.

if you get 215 back and you paid 295 then you are getting 25k miles for 80 pounds.
Thats sounds like a good deal because no ammount of complainig will change what happened.

I know it won't but surely if they don't give you the service you paid for they should at least as a minimum give you back the money you paid for that service. I don't want any of their miles as I will not be flying with them again.

I have to agree - if I did not get the seat I had booked then I would expect to be reimbursed for what I paid for, but did not get. Why on earth would an airline pay you only 75% of the extra cost - what exactly happens to the 25%?! For the inconvenience I would expect far more back, I'm afraid, than the cost of the denied upgrade and I would not accept any of the offers given. I don't think that buying an upgraded seat is like requesting a certain seat on a plane - if money has changed hands then there is an expectation on both sides. I too would be fuming. Worth contacting VH; I have found them to be helpful and generous in the past when we have had hotel problems.

I was offered a downgrade on my UC flight to HK last week and although I did not take it, I would have expected no less than the full difference between PE (or E - no idea where they wanted to downgrade me to) and UC, plus quite a few miles to make it worthwhile. I am sorry I did not ask what they were offering now. An offer of 75% would have made me laugh out loud.

Well 75% is as per the EU directive - but it does not exactly specify what that is 75% of i.e. how the fare is defined.

I am begining to think that VS are being a bit creative in how they calculated the fare and the refund.

To us mere mortals the fare is the ££ we hand over but to VS there is the base fare PLUS the VS fuel surcharge, taxes and airport fees which to them arn't really part of the fare.

The £295 is just for the upgrade all the fuel surcharges and taxes are charged seperately on the invoice.

Indeeed, the idea of paying the likes of even a sale fare of 1K for like a PE to UC upgrade, and getting only 750 quid back, seems that you've lost out..

However, the compensation here looks like 295 vs (215 + (250 or 375 quid worth of miles)) means more than what you paid. Downside is having to use them again to get the real value, and yes, I'd be put off...

Hi Betsie

I think the big problem here is that what you paid to VH for the upgrade has almost next to no correlation to Virgin Atlantic published fares.

Virgin Holidays economy flights book into fare code V, and PE flights into fare code H - these prices are not published on Expert Flyer - don't know if any of out members with access to IATA software might be able to inform.

Updated: OK - Virgin Atlantic website says "9.3.3.2 reimbursement to be paid to the party who purchased the ticket, subject to proof of payment and identity of the purchaser, of 75% of the fare applicable to the flight if you have been involuntarily downgraded." So assuming the ££295 you paid to VH for the upgrade booked you into fare code H for the return then you would be entitled to 75% of the one way H fare. You could use the K fare as a guide, but be aware that H codes are deeply discounted as they are the most inflexible fares there are.

If the 75% of the H fare is less than you paid, I would be tempted to take the money on offer from Virgin Atlantic as you don't want the miles, etc, and then pursue Virgin Holidays under the clause relating to a major change to your holiday notified within 7 days, from which you might be eligible for £50.

Regards
R3dV

You need to simpy state that you paid X for an at the airport upgrade but that they are only refunding Y which may be technically correct is morally wrong. (though actually 75% of £295 is £ 221 !)
It could be they did not realise this then they did the calculation.
Stay measured. Simply state you are very upset and that you feel VS is wrong in its calculation.
Thank them for the offer of the additional compensation but (unless you want to take it) you would prefer ££ rather than vouchers or miles.

Totally agree with tontybear on this one (I too would be as p...d off as you are over the whole thing though).
When in a similar situation I went back to them again and said that I thought their offer was totally unreasonable and how very upset I was over the matter and low and behold a much better offer came back the second time.
Have to say VS really do seem to be letting themselves down a lot of late though.

In my view, the whole experience for not only this passenger, but for his partner and child has been ruined. One has to sit in Economy, the others have to spend the flight without their Dad/Husband. I can certainly understand why you are not happy and would stand your ground in order to gain further compensation. The whole cost of the upgrade has not been worth it, so in my mind, that is £900 odd which has been wasted and by the looks of things, 3 passengers lost for good.

It is now the next day and I strongly disagree with what I said yesterday !
You should get the extra money you paid to go from Y to PE back in full (295 or whatever it is plus extra taxes).
Anything on top of that is discretionary and, harsh though it does sound, a business will likely look at your past and potential value as a customer in determining this.
You FF status is likely the main factor here - ugly though I know it sounds. Invol downgrades will usually be made on the basis of FF status/fare code with the lower ranking being first to go.

Since you booked through VH you could/should pursue them. They sold you the upgrade - they have to provide an upgrade.

Hi Betsie,

Right, my two pennyworth.

The issue on your outbound, where you upgraded at the airport, - well, I hate to say it but that is how goes sometimes. The chances of getting four seats together IN PE at that stage are pretty remote. A lesson for us all, check out seat location if that is important before you take an upgrade, however reasonably priced.

With regard to your downgrade on your return, your complaint should have been addressed to Virgin Holidays. It is to them you paid the premium for PE so they owe you for that at least. I would start knocking at their door asap.

I had a problem with undelivered service on a flight on a VH booked holiday. VH tried to fob me off to VS and vice versa and the whole communication cycle took forever. I eventually went after both of them and they eventually worked out an appropriate level of compensation and apologised. Good luck. y)

@Steve. great minds etc y)

I was under the impression that it was 75% refund of the ticket price of the downgraded sector, i.e. the whole fare including the upgrade, not just the difference between fares.

So if an economy fare is about £600 return with VH, i.e. £300 one way, plus the £295 = £595 x 75% = £446 ball park.

Have I misunderstood? Otherwise, why would you prebook something that you may not get and will not get all your money back for if you don't???? Makes no sense.

Betsie,
This is a highly unsatisfactory situation for you and I can understand your frustration.

If I was you I would clarify my rights and think about how I can best enforce those rights. I don’t know how much you have already researched so apologies if this is telling you stuff you already know.
EU regulation can be difficult to understand and interpret but the airline regulations for downgrading seem relative clear. If you haven’t already looked at them they are at http://eur-lex.europa.eu/ website and easily found through Google.

Article 10 deals with downgrading:
1. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class higher than that for which the ticket was purchased, it may not request any supplementary payment.

2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse

(a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less, or

(b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, except flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments, and for all other flights between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres, or

(c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.

So this confirms that you are due a 75% refund of your ticket price. I take this to be the price of your flight from MCO to LGW. Virgin tell you that they have calculated the 75% figure as £255, which means they calculate the full cost as £340. Given you paid £295 as the upgrade cost, this means they calculate the original economy cost from MCO to LGW as £45.
Note that ‘ticket’ is defined under Article 2 (f). Summarising it is defined as a document in paper or electronic form. Do you have your original ticket and if so does this state the price you paid? If so, that will no doubt be a useful comparison with what Virgin calculates as the cost of the Economy ticket.
If you do have the ticket and it states the original price of the Economy return from LGW to MCO then my initial response to Virgin would be to assert that the total cost of my ticket from MCO to LGW was 50% of the economy round trip plus £295 and that I wanted 75% of that figure please. Oh, plus a bit extra because Virgin have failed to meet their obligation to pay out within 7 days as required under Article 10 – although to be fair the bank account interest you will have lost on not having that money will be very small.

If you don’t have the ticket or it doesn’t state a price having been booked though VH then if I was you I would ask Virgin to set down how they calculate the ticket price.

There may be a question here of whether the ticket price includes tax. Whenever I look at my airline tickets they tell me the total price I paid but with tax set down as a separate figure. I don’t know if there is any case law on whether the price I pay for that ‘ticket’ is inclusive or exclusive of tax. There’s some EU analysis at http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/enforceme ... report.pdf but it may not be very helpful.

If Virgin don’t reply (or if you are already feel that you have had enough) consider the help extended to you under Article 16 (Infringements):
1. Each Member State shall designate a body responsible for the enforcement of this Regulation as regards flights from airports situated on its territory and flights from a third country to such airports. Where appropriate, this body shall take the measures necessary to ensure that the rights of passengers are respected. The Member States shall inform the Commission of the body that has been designated in accordance with this paragraph.

2. Without prejudice to Article 12, each passenger may complain to any body designated under paragraph 1, or to any other competent body designated by a Member State, about an alleged infringement of this Regulation at any airport situated on the territory of a Member State or concerning any flight from a third country to an airport situated on that territory.

3. The sanctions laid down by Member States for infringements of this Regulation shall be effective, proportionate and dissuasive.

In the UK, the responsible body is the Civil Aviation Authority. If you look on the CAA website, you will see that they provide an email address where you can complain if you are unhappy about an airline response to the EU regs - [email protected] I don’t know if they are any good but you could try them and report back so the rest of us know for future reference.

Alternatively, contact the UK European Consumer Centre - http://www.ukecc.net/

Finally, as others have said, if your contract is with VH then VH should also be involved. Article 3 (5) of the EU regs is of interest here.

Good luck!

Are you a subscriber to Which?