State Aid please...

We don't have great protections for Debit cards here. My other thought, would be to see what the price would be to make it a full J fare, to then get the option to refund the entire ticket. No idea if thats plausible but maybe worth a look into.

I do have travel insurance but I'll be surprised at getting any head way there.

What about Amex Platinum and Gold charge-cards?

Anyone know the score with those, if woe be upon us

What about Amex Platinum and Gold charge-cards?

Anyone know the score with those, if woe be upon us

Charge cards are not covered by Section 75 but Amex has its own voluntary (so not legally binding) chargeback scheme.

I thought the Gold card was a credit card these days though - which would be covered by S75. The Platinum is still a charge card.

We don't have great protections for Debit cards here. My other thought, would be to see what the price would be to make it a full J fare, to then get the option to refund the entire ticket. No idea if thats plausible but maybe worth a look into.

I do have travel insurance but I'll be surprised at getting any head way there.

Afraid not. My understanding from previous posts on here where people have tried and found it didn't work is that ticket retains the original fare rules.

US banks have different rules so investigate

this may be of help

https://www.transportation.gov/individu ... on/refunds

Couple of linls to US DoT rules in this Washington Post chat thread (thogh some of their advice is pretty ropey)

For new applicants you can only get a Gold CC, but existing charge card users can continue to use it.

There are 10,000 jobs at risk here. In addition to huge impacts at UK airports and regional connections such as Manchester growth. UK Govt cannot seriously allow VS to go under, the lobbying by Airbus etc is a huge win for VS.

The amount of bad press VS is getting is astounding. The longer this crisis drags, they’ll need to reassess their situation. The Gov said they won’t let failing business go under, VS wasn’t failing.

I feel so sorry for the colleagues right now who must be feeling so many emotions, the majority of whom are loyal to VS and Virgin Group.

You’d need to speak to your bank.

UK banks do operate a chargeback scheme for debit card payments although it’s voluntary and not enshrined in law like it is for credit card payments.

I’ve no idea if US banks offer similar though.

I was able to use the chargeback scheme on my Visa Debit card a few years ago when I ordered something online from House of Fraser the day before they went into adminstration and they subsequently cancelled all online orders that hadn't been dispatched.

The golden rule I follow is to buy anything over £100 on a credit card. Even if I have the cash to pay for something upfront, the protection credit cards offer makes it worthwhile and you have a much better chance of getting your money back if something was to go wrong.

Back to the plight of VS, now MAN has joined LHR, Airbus and Rolls-Royce in pressuring the government to offer a bailout...

https://www.cityam.com/manchester-airpo ... e-support/

It’s worth remembering MAN as an airport has lost three airlines with major presences within the last 2 1/2 years (Flybe, Thomas Cook and Monarch) and stands to gain the most from VS’ expansion plans before COVID-19 kicked off, so they won’t be keen to see another airline with a major presence going bust.

Interesting article here from yesterday which takes a long look at the balance between state aid vs private investment for VS:

https://www.moneyweb.co.za/news/interna ... ut-really/

'It’s harder to understand why a government should provide loans or guarantees to Virgin Atlantic, when its shareholders or commercial lenders don’t seem willing to — beyond what Branson has chipped in.'

So the Gov is drafting in Morgan Stanley now to advise ministers ;

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus- ... s-11973599

Interesting - suspect movement on the advisor side means that the government is trying to find a way to assist. Doesn’t mean that a deal can be reached or is even possible, especially as we don’t know when Covid will permit the volume of flying (especially TATL flying) we have seen in recent years.

Perhaps the VS presence and plans at MAN and the economic impact of that have some sway after all...

More hoops to jump through as VS have to re submit its bailout plans as the Treasury is unimpressed with the initial proposal;

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21Z3D9

More hoops to jump through as VS have to re submit its bailout plans as the Treasury is unimpressed with the initial proposal;

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN21Z3D9

Quite significant hoops too - according to the original FT article they include requiring evidence that Virgin Atlantic has exhausted other sources of support, and does not accept the optimistic assumptions in the business plan it has submitted.

Back to SRB and DL then, cap in hand.

More likely VS will look to raise additional lending through existing credit lines. Possibly some additional borrowing against slots and aircraft - if they have any (I think from memory they’ve secured most of them against existing borrowing).

I don’t think the UK Govt option is out the equation. They may be playing hard ball due to the PR piece. I’m surprised that EZY could raise 600mn against the CCFF scheme whilst VS don’t look to be reviewing that option.

I think any government intervention would be a really last resort now.

Personally speaking. The VS we knew and loved 6 weeks ago is gone, what shape emerges from the shadow of COVID19 remains to be seen, but the new routes and growth strategy of Velocity, feels redundant - a double down on the new TATL JV will be critical.

It’s a very tough one to call.

Bailing out VS would be difficult politically as I suspect public opinion would be broadly against throwing taxpayers’ money at a barely profitable company that’s owned by a tax-avoiding billionaire and a wealthy US airline.

BA, for obvious reasons, would lobby very strongly against it too.

However the government is also acutely aware of the need for competition which the demise of VS would lessen considerably.

The problem is, given that it’s likely to take at least a couple of years for demand to return to pre-crisis levels, the government may see it as throwing good money after bad, as with Flybe, which it would be loathe to do. And until demand picks up it may decide that a short-term lack of competition is a sacrifice it’s prepared to make.

Having read everyones posts on what might happen with VS, they are unfortunately a much smaller fish than BA.

We were seasoned VS flyers for many years but when I retired wanted to go where Virgin did not and ventured over to the dark side, and have found they were in fact very good, we personally find their First cabin excellent and every flight the staff have been superb.

Having had to cancel our recent trip to Vegas with BA the money and Companion voucher were returned within a fortnight, we are still waiting for the Virgin car hire ( booked only because it was much cheaper for the same deal ) to be refunded on hearing Amex is holding onto refunds as they are not sure of Virgins survival and know they would have to refund with the 75 section scheme.

I was going to book for next year with Virgin to use up some miles accumulated from Tesco and Virgin cc, but will now delay and book with BA, if Virgin do go it will be a shame but Hilton and others will be getting a lot of points transferred from many people. Linda

VS also offering option to pay via PayPal rather than credit card. Clearly in an attempt to have funds clear quicker and try to alleviate any funds being withheld by card providers - this may just be them getting on the front foot but it's a rather worrying step. One of the main reasons airlines hit the wall is due to card providers withholding funds given financial uncertainty and necessary clawback. If you're wanting to pay via PP - up to 10k in miles available.

I think HFP covered paying via PayPal saying it was more difficult to get your money back through them than from a cc provider.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-healt ... KKBN22213D

The BBC’s Tom Burridge just said on the News Channel he expects a government decision about whether to help VS in the next fortnight.

As I said upthread, ministers have to weigh up the risks of ploughing hundreds of millions of pounds of public money into propping up a barely profitable airline that’s owned by a tax-avoiding billionaire and one of the world’s wealthiest carriers versus the implications for jobs, the economy and competition if BA’s only British full service rival were to fail.

The BBC’s Tom Burridge just said on the News Channel he expects a government decision about whether to help VS in the next fortnight.

As I said upthread, ministers have to weigh up the risks of ploughing hundreds of millions of pounds of public money into propping up a barely profitable airline that’s owned by a tax-avoiding billionaire and one of the world’s wealthiest carriers versus the implications for jobs, the economy and competition if BA’s only British full service rival were to fail.

https://twitter.com/richardbranson/stat ... 67/photo/1

The BBC’s Tom Burridge just said on the News Channel he expects a government decision about whether to help VS in the next fortnight.

As I said upthread, ministers have to weigh up the risks of ploughing hundreds of millions of pounds of public money into propping up a barely profitable airline that’s owned by a tax-avoiding billionaire and one of the world’s wealthiest carriers versus the implications for jobs, the economy and competition if BA’s only British full service rival were to fail.

I think Branson's tax situation is the big rub for the government in making this decision. Whilst ministers rightly want competition, can they really be seen to be propping up a barely profitable airline? Branson is not short of a bob or two and nor is Delta. (I do, of course, realise that the US trade unions would have a field-day if Delta tried to prop Virgin Atlantic up whilst reducing US services & thus American jobs).

All I can say is imagine if it was Amazon UK coming to the government cap in hand asking for state aid. Their tax situation is very well reported & there would [rightly] be public outcry.

Branson has been riding on his "good guy taking on the bad guy [so BA]" image for way too long. He is conveniently quiet about his tax affairs too.

The BBC’s Tom Burridge just said on the News Channel he expects a government decision about whether to help VS in the next fortnight.

As I said upthread, ministers have to weigh up the risks of ploughing hundreds of millions of pounds of public money into propping up a barely profitable airline that’s owned by a tax-avoiding billionaire and one of the world’s wealthiest carriers versus the implications for jobs, the economy and competition if BA’s only British full service rival were to fail.

https://twitter.com/richardbranson/stat ... 67/photo/1

I could tweet that I am not fat, does not make it true though!

SRBs personal tax status is not relavent in my view. Nor is his supposed net worth. Government has bailed out all sorts of firms in the past and their foreign ownership hasn't been much of an issue when push came to shove when offering grants or loans.

VS (as are many other Virgin branded companies) as a company is based in the UK and pays all applicable taxes where they apply and that includes corporation tax, national insurance and business rates. Same as the likes of Amazon. If the tax rules need changing then they should be changed so that they do pay a fair rate (what is fair is a different matter) of tax (but turnover does not mean profits that can be taxed)

He might have been worth £4bn but now not so much. Plus how much of that does he have as ready cash. Based on the propsed 31% same to AF-KL the company was valued at arounf $1bn. Is it worth that now? probbably not.

I don't envy DL. They have ownership in a number of airlines not just VS and no doubt the French and Dutch governments will be expecting DL to support AF-KL as well. Ditto the Mexican Government and Aeromexico (DL owns 49%)

The competition aspect is also important. The Australian government was looking to support VA because it felt having domestic competition is important in the Australian Market. A couple of the state governments were willing to support VA in order to maintain that and regional flights.

And our government also needs to consider the wider impact if VS closed down - think of all the firms in the supply chain. Airbus and Rolls often get a mention but there are for example the catering companies and the uniform supplier and all the companies that supply them that need to be taken into account