New Economy?

[Pete]

Now this is intriguing...

A member of Virgin's staff has posted the following gem on A.net;

"New Y class product on the way! Very secretive but expect our reputation as an innovator to be re-justified, starting with a blank sheet of paper. Seating and service like nothing in Y class ever, very clever stuff!!!! "

Methinks it's time to turn on the investigative reporter mode...

Pix

quote:Originally posted by pixuk
Methinks it's time to turn on the investigative reporter mode...

Indeed! That's a real nugget, but too much of a tease

[Bazz]

Come on you VS Staffers, spill the beans, what's this all about?

it wouldn't surprise me if Virgin were going to copy Singapore's new economy for their ultra long haul flights between Sing and LA which begin this year. I was told on a flight back from OZ recently that the economy on these flights is very much like a PE product which is great news as aside from night flights I think the PE/WTP product is v good value
http://www.airlinequality.com/Product/SIA-Ex-Y.htm

This is an interesting one. If Y becomes near to the PE product, PE will need to be uprated as well.

Y would need to cost more because of the lower seating density and PE cost would need to be increased to maintain a price differential but how could PE be improved? Perhaps seats that reclined a little further and a new approach to the menu would be sufficient?

Alternatively, (and I hope not as a frequent PE leisure flyer!) the system could feature just two classes, an improved Y (near to current PE) and UC. This would probably result in more UC seat sales. We will wait and see............

[Pete]

I hope they don't ditch PE either - it seems unlikely they would.

However, I could imagine a scenario where Economy becomes more like PE with some additional improvements (well, they still need to innovate); PE is more like other airlines' business and Upper continues to challenge First Class products.

Some of the recent fare class changes seems to suggest there may be some movement towards targeting premium flyer rather than filling up the back with N class £195 specials. My own purchasing decisions over the past 8 years or so have been based on the fact I'm prepared to pay a little extra for a little more comfort. The popularity of PE (it almost always seems to oversell) would tend to suggest there are a lot of passengers who think like me. If Virgin have identified this, then it would make sense to come up with a mass-product that offers a PE-type product for an Economy price. However, just like AA did when they removed seats from the aircraft, in order to maintain revenue they just limit the availability of the extremely discounted fares.

When Virgin introduced the Suite, they managed to do so with only a small drop in total number of seats. I'm sure they also saw a noticeable increase in bookings (as demonstrated by the restrictions on operational upgrades). With the same team working on PE & Y designs, I'm sure they'll be able to come up with ideas which will revolutionise Economy, and at the same time attract passengers willing to pay a £50-£100 premium over other carriers to fly them.

It is also possible that these plans are being drawn up for the introduction of the A380, where current restrictions on the total number of passengers (safety - based on the number they can evacuate in a reasonable time) means there will be more space to play with. They could either fill that space with retail or premium features (as has been touted by Airbus), or they could simply offer more personal space to each passenger in combination with a funky seat design to catch your eye.

Who knows? This is all speculation at the moment, but I'll be following developments on this with keen interest.

Pix

I think what they should do is as follows;

As the Suites come in, the J2000 seats should be moved to the PE cabin and the Economy cabin should be decked-out in current PE seats

In a perfect world.....

TJ

Changes are only to do with service.

Not seats, cabins or space.

So wait until the 4th quarter of this year!!

[Pete]

Hi declan,

Other members of the VS 'family' disagree with you

I'm still making wild guesses - so I'll take your word for it, but looking at the many forums on the Internet, the stick Virgin gets for its Economy product tends to be directed at the seat space more than service. Service can have its 'off' days, but I think many people have the perception that it's already up there with the best of them. The new Wash seats haven't helped matters; reports are that they feel smaller; and the V.Port control boxes are more obtrusive. You could have a marching band deliver your meal personally, but it wouldn't solve the problem of personal space, and that issue really needs to be addressed.

Pix

The seat box under the new wash seats is being modified and is already installed on ROC and some A340-600 other v-port aircraft are being modified when in the hanger.

WASH seats are here to stay!!!

I cant say but the way the service is delivered is being changed. Different ways the meals are presented and the way the service is being run!!

Anyway I wont say anymmore its interesting to here everyone speculating on here!!

[Pete]

It may make for some excitement within the hallowed halls of Crawley, but I can't see how a meal service is going to fix the underlying problem. Personally I think both Wash and Kash, though they look nice, just aren't as comfortable as the original seats, so unless some cabin rejig is on the cards, the planned re-launch may highlight problems rather than welcome the masses to the airline.

Putting my commercial head on for a second, I would have thought Virgin don't really have that much of a problem filling up the aircraft already? Surely it would be a better goal to raise the average revenue per seat, and the only way to get punters to part with a little extra is to give them more space? On the competitive ratings charts, it's the seat pitch they focus on; not the meal service.

Declan, feel free to email me privately if I've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, but it would be a big mistake to make a song and dance about a new Y cabin and then not do something about 31" pitch.

Pix

If virgin removed Y seats they would have to increase fares but from there research people are not preapred to pay higher fares.

Why was KASH and WASH seats selected because they are light weight seats reducing the weight of the aircraft meaning cheaper to fly.

I know what is going on behind the scenes and they are looking at service delivery such as carts and meal trays.

Anyway I will watch this board grow over the 'NEW Economy' and see the results at the end of the year!!

The WASH product is here to stay, VHOT goes in next week for new seating and V-Port.

Virgin will not spend all this time and money refitting an entire aircraft only for it to change in a few months again.

the 30/ 31 inch seat pitch will stay as until BA change there pitch!!!

Declan,

Though I understand what your saying about why would they refit a plane only to re-do it a few months later... one query I have is (while we're talking about seemingly non-sensicle refitting) why are the new Airbus 346's being fitted out with the J2000 Upper Class seats? Won't they need to be upgraded to the Suites? Why not just fit the Suites from the start as they are new planes? (please correct me if I'm wrong as I haven't flown on a 346 yet).

Though I love VS and would never fly with anyone else (unless it was on a route not serviced by VS), if all they do is upgrade the Y service and leave the seating the way it is, I have to say that I won't be that impressed.

Seating is virtually THE most important thing when travelling. A more comfortable Y seat would be something to shout about, not a simple improvement to the service (though obviously that should go hand-in-hand with seat upgrades).

I will be really surprised if VS simply update the Y service and do nothing with the seating. A service improvement will hardly be a 'Re-launch' of the Y product etc.

TJ

From my first experience of VS last month,there were no problems with the service - much better than BA or UA. I have to say though, that the seats really didn't feel comfortable. I don't really expect luxury in Y, but BA's seats did seem better.
I would quite happily pay another £50-£100 for a better Y seat.
Changing the way meals are delivered has absolutely no appeal to me as a customer.

[Pete]

Declan - I think you're missing the point I made about bucket classes earlier.

Not all economy seats are sold at the same price, there are several buckets ranging from Y to N. On top of that, even the same bucket may have a different fare, depending on the time of year, the route, and many other factors.

Assuming Virgin are sticking with Wash and Kash (and I agree there's no reason to change those given they've only just put them in), the other alternative is to take some rows out (just like AA).

However, because of the complicated maths involved in buckets, in order to find that revenue you've lost on the seats you take out, rather than a blanket increase in price, you simply limit the availability on the cheaper buckets and raise the average revenue per seat. If, for instance (using a very over-simplified example) the mix was currently 50% Y (Full Fare) and 50% N (Student Megasaver), the goal would be to move that to 70% Y / 30% N - the actual advertised prices don't change from where they are today. How do you do that? By offering a product punters select over the competition.

And, with regard to BA's pitch, my perception is that Virgin are a leader, not a follower. If I'm wrong on this, and Virgin simply react to BA, then that's not very innovative.

Pix

Yup, I'm echoing everything Pix, TJ & AndyK have said in this thread. AndyK's post above sums it up for me completely.

Every flight I've taken with VS has had great service, and I really don't think that's the part of the "VS experience" to be concentrating on. Although, that said, from seeing other people's experiences, maybe getting the consistency of offering the good service I've experienced should be high up on the list.

Even though I've had all but one of my transatlantic flights on VS, changing my meal type/service/whatever would not give me that extra VS buzz. Upgrading the Y seating/spacing would have everyone flocking to VS in droves.

After my last flight back from bos in Y with that bloody box I vowed never again .If the box is being moved excellent but not too quickly as I like it up the front and its a good way to justify the extra cost.

i totally agree with all posts on this subject - the leg room and space in economy is all that matters.

everything else is for up front of the plane and is important cos you've paid a premium for it!

it's also important to note that economy clases across airlines are almost identical give or take service xref BA and others have seat back tvs and free toothbrushes.

virgin could beat the rest again by just allowing that bit extra room for those at the back.....i suspect the Singapore model will be the one they follow...

quote:Originally posted by pixuk
Personally I think both Wash and Kash, though they look nice, just aren't as comfortable as the original seats, so unless some cabin rejig is on the cards, the planned re-launch may highlight problems rather than welcome the masses to the airline.

Having flown both the old PE seats and the "Wash" seats, all I have to say is that the "Wash" seat was designed for the people who had to look at it for 11 minutes at a press launch, not sit in it for 11 hours.

I've slept really soundly in the old PE seat. I can't say the same for my (one) experience of Wash. My other question was "where did my seat pocket go?"

Sorry Virgin, but you scored a serious own goal, putting looks before comfort doesn't win my business.

Mike

I recently have returned from my fab. holiday to New York, inc. fab. flights with Virgin Economy.

The service was excellent, really friendly. They were even better on the outbound flight with more drinks ect. but were still good on the inbound night flight. The food was delicious and filling, cabin crew were very friendly, great IFE ect. The aircraft we flew on the outbound flight was G-VTOP with Odyssey and the previous Economy seats. My dad, who is about 6ft found that these seats were very good, legroom was not a problem, the width was find. On the way back, G-VWOW was serving our flight, with V.Port and the Kash and Wash seats. The IFE was even better, and the seats were appreciated for the fact that they have ajustable headrests with 'wings', but the legroom was slightly worse, and the seats were slightly narrower.

American, although I have never flown with them, have 3 inches extra legroom, but from what I have heard, have a shoddy service.


VS, have a superb service, great staff, IFE ect. but improving the legroom would be great, making them have better seats than American, along with the 'Virgin Flair' and superb 'young' approach.

However, as Declansmith says, why would they intall new Kash and Wash seats on G-VHOT soon, and then introduce new seats at the end of this year? It doesn't seem very good idea to do this. But then again, they might postpone refitting it for now and refit it at the end of the year, but that seems unlikely, as they have promised refitting it for around this time with the Suites. I just don't know, there is so many possibilities.

We will just have to keep on thinking on what is happening, until Virgin finally tell us at the end of the year!

[Pete]

Hi dan,

I wouldn't propose they *change* the seats, just take some out so they can give people more legroom - and preferably more that AA's Economy. Combine that with VS flair, and then their Economy cabin is unbeatable.

Pix

I totally agree with the comments here. Having flown both AA and UA economy plus the extra romm is fantastic, but service totally lousy. If VS removed seats and had 33 or 34" of legroom combined with their excellent service, they would be at the forefront of aviation innovation once again.

I have to say that they no longer appear to be as innovative as they once were. Come on VS Lead, don't follow!

I agree. Removing some Economy seats, though keeping the same design, would be great! The extra legroom would have people beating at VS's door.

To be honest, I think that just removing the seats would be great like you said, the current designs are very good, because, rather than other airlines dark and dreery blue or grey seats, Virgin has a great flow to it and it looks stylish! The Kash seats are great in the fact of the design, with the ajustable headrests, and removing just several seats would be great, I wouldn't mind paying more, as long as it would still be affordable, because Virgin's prices are reasonable for the service. Imagine more legroom, in Economy, it will take other airlines to the dogs! Ok, so AA has 'more room throughout coach' but, although I haven't flown them, they seem to be bad when it comes to customer service, and, of course,do not have Virgin's funkiness.

I hope they add more legroom, but, declan says, it's only to service. Whilst added service improvements would be appreciated, Virgin have a great service, so comfort should go alongside it!

In fairness to American, I fly with them fairly frequently and have never had bad service. OK, it's not Virgin but I certainly prefer it to my experience of either United or BA. And the legspace is great. And they do the best coach meal I've experienced - a Pizza. Nothing special, but Pizza seems to be about the only food that can be easily cooked en masse on a plane, and it's pretty damn good.

Not Virgin, but - at least in my experience - they don't deserve a reputation for bad service.