The only motivation I can see for the EU pursuing this is to gain permission for AF and LH et al to offer flights to US from LHR. I can't see how this would benefit anybody except those airlines to be honest. LHR is already overcrowded and there is already significant competition on those routes. European airlines will still be restricted in their ability to own and invest in US airlines.
Originally posted by cshore
The only motivation I can see for the EU pursuing this is to gain permission for AF and LH et al to offer flights to US from LHR. I can't see how this would benefit anybody except those airlines to be honest. LHR is already overcrowded and there is already significant competition on those routes. European airlines will still be restricted in their ability to own and invest in US airlines.
It will also benefit DUB as up to now all flights between the US and Ireland are obliged to stop in SNN. The Shannon stopover allowed flights directly to DUB with this proviso as SNN was afraid it would become a white elephant in the way Prestwick did with the end of re-fuelling stops there. This agreement would make this redundant
Hmmmmm....
I can just see it now.
Fly the new Ryanair International route.
Dublin to New York (well, Shannon to Bangor Main, but its close enough) in our international cabin. Just get on board and grab a seat. No recline and bring your own water and food.
For the buisnessmen, we have special £35 plus tax buisness class. 1 degree seat recline and free single piece of hand baggage.
IFE? You are joking right???
I can just see it now.
Fly the new Ryanair International route.
Dublin to New York (well, Shannon to Bangor Main, but its close enough) in our international cabin. Just get on board and grab a seat. No recline and bring your own water and food.
For the buisnessmen, we have special £35 plus tax buisness class. 1 degree seat recline and free single piece of hand baggage.
IFE? You are joking right???
Originally posted by AlanA
IFE? You are joking right???
Erm, Ryanair did introduce DVD players, albeit at a price, but they abandoned the idea because the take up was poor
Originally posted by AlanA
Hmmmmm....
I can just see it now.
Fly the new Ryanair International route.
Dublin to New York (well, Shannon to Bangor Main, but its close enough) in our international cabin. Just get on board and grab a seat. No recline and bring your own water and food.
For the buisnessmen, we have special £35 plus tax buisness class. 1 degree seat recline and free single piece of hand baggage.
IFE? You are joking right???
Joking (and opinions about Ryanair) aside, wasn't it Freddie Laker's no frills concept that begat Virgin, and that concept included "bring your own water and food" ?
Paul
We can get better, because we're not dead yet
Originally posted by pjh
Joking (and opinions about Ryanair) aside, wasn't it Freddie Laker's no frills concept that begat Virgin, and that concept included "bring your own water and food" ?
Paul
Yes, and he was killed off by the big airline cartel. Shame really. Sir Freddie was SRB's hero
Hopefully, VS will be able to compete effectively on price without compromising the product as AF/LH have almost no product to speak of in my opinion. However, what worries me more is that VS will have to lower fares and thus be unable to keep up the innovation and have to drop some of the extras (those left anyway;))
VS.
VS.
This WILL NOT pass. I have had a little read of it and to be honest its worse than the joke of the deal that Washington put on the table a couple of years back.
It really is American biased and European airlines stand to gain nothing from it so it will not be passed.
How the American governement can view it as a fair deal is beyond me!
I saw an article on this in the paper- which opened with a famous quote that said "Americans see themselves as 20 years ahead of us, in fact they are 6 hours behind"! When the US realises that the EU cant be bossed around and brings a decent deal to the table,and by that I mean, EU carriers allowed 49% control of American airlines, EU Carriers allowed to operate domestic routes within the US, then and only then, will we begin to see some kind of sensible talks taking place.
It really is American biased and European airlines stand to gain nothing from it so it will not be passed.
How the American governement can view it as a fair deal is beyond me!
I saw an article on this in the paper- which opened with a famous quote that said "Americans see themselves as 20 years ahead of us, in fact they are 6 hours behind"! When the US realises that the EU cant be bossed around and brings a decent deal to the table,and by that I mean, EU carriers allowed 49% control of American airlines, EU Carriers allowed to operate domestic routes within the US, then and only then, will we begin to see some kind of sensible talks taking place.
Originally posted by willd
This WILL NOT pass. I have had a little read of it and to be honest its worse than the joke of the deal that Washington put on the table a couple of years back.
It really is American biased and European airlines stand to gain nothing from it so it will not be passed.
How the American governement can view it as a fair deal is beyond me!
I saw an article on this in the paper- which opened with a famous quote that said "Americans see themselves as 20 years ahead of us, in fact they are 6 hours behind"! When the US realises that the EU cant be bossed around and brings a decent deal to the table,and by that I mean, EU carriers allowed 49% control of American airlines, EU Carriers allowed to operate domestic routes within the US, then and only then, will we begin to see some kind of sensible talks taking place.
I agree with you. However, I suspect that the EC will be very tempted to agree to lots of bad things in order to get non-UK airlines access to Heathrow. This would be good for them but very bad for us.
Nice quote. I saw one yesterday relating to a previous round of negotiations some years ago. The Americans turned up with lots of computer equipment and aske the English whether they would like some space for theirs. They replied "No, that's fine, we just need a litter bin."
Chris
This seems to be a really bad deal for the UK. For some reason the EU still seem to feel they have to surrender all their cards to get small concessions from the US. Despite some EU members stating it is 'a step in the right direction' what they do not seem to get is that we are giving away too many of our own cards for the US to see any need to making any more steps later on - what else will there be for the EU to give.
I had thought at least that the agreement would allow EU carriers to pick up US passengers for onward destinations - but no even that is not included. So US carriers can fly internally in the EU and buy into European carriers - although that would seem unlikely while EU carriers cannot fly internally in the US, buy into the airlines significantly or fly onwards from the US - what a pile of ?*s!.
Why can't the EU agree an alternative deal to allow EU airlines access to LHR - may not be perfect but at least it gives the EU carriers what they want and probably deserve while not dropping our pants to the US airlines.
Phil FM
I had thought at least that the agreement would allow EU carriers to pick up US passengers for onward destinations - but no even that is not included. So US carriers can fly internally in the EU and buy into European carriers - although that would seem unlikely while EU carriers cannot fly internally in the US, buy into the airlines significantly or fly onwards from the US - what a pile of ?*s!.
Why can't the EU agree an alternative deal to allow EU airlines access to LHR - may not be perfect but at least it gives the EU carriers what they want and probably deserve while not dropping our pants to the US airlines.
Phil FM
45- You hit the nail on the head- if they get slots.
Family- I agree wiht you- what is worse is not only can American carriers operate LHR-ATH under this arangement they can also operate LHR-PEK, LHR-DXB and so on.
I will eat my hat if this gets passed on March 20th. THe aviation community will be lobbying hard. I would imagine that the likes of LH, AF, KLM will all be against the deal as they really want domestic US flights like BA and VS do. Remember whilst operating out of LHR is a plus it is heavily slot restricted and something like 70% of profit out of short haul flights is made in the States from their non slot restricted airports.
As I said earlier Washington do seem to have one standard for themselves and one for everyone else. The thing that makes me laugh about the current deal is the legacy carriers in the US, CO in particular have fought long and hard to try and get Virgin America banned in the US for being foregin etc etc. And yet CO is one of the driving forces behind intra European flights for American carriers!
Family- I agree wiht you- what is worse is not only can American carriers operate LHR-ATH under this arangement they can also operate LHR-PEK, LHR-DXB and so on.
I will eat my hat if this gets passed on March 20th. THe aviation community will be lobbying hard. I would imagine that the likes of LH, AF, KLM will all be against the deal as they really want domestic US flights like BA and VS do. Remember whilst operating out of LHR is a plus it is heavily slot restricted and something like 70% of profit out of short haul flights is made in the States from their non slot restricted airports.
As I said earlier Washington do seem to have one standard for themselves and one for everyone else. The thing that makes me laugh about the current deal is the legacy carriers in the US, CO in particular have fought long and hard to try and get Virgin America banned in the US for being foregin etc etc. And yet CO is one of the driving forces behind intra European flights for American carriers!
Originally posted by willdOf course CO wants intra-European flights! They know how much they're losing from people who jump ex-US planes once they arrive at any non-US airport. After the airline has tortured the pax for the duration, most are ready to crawl to any other desk and try another airline, anything but get back on board a US carrier.
As I said earlier Washington do seem to have one standard for themselves and one for everyone else. The thing that makes me laugh about the current deal is the legacy carriers in the US, CO in particular have fought long and hard to try and get Virgin America banned in the US for being foregin etc etc. And yet CO is one of the driving forces behind intra European flights for American carriers!
CO, AA, UA, etc. are losing their shirts in the US, so they think they can spike their sales with direct routes to destinations instead of interlining.
Bah. What I can't understand is why anyone would fly a US airline internationally! I'd even consider the Dark Side before I'd fly United across the pond, or American, if I couldn't get a VS flight and had to choose amongst the US carriers... Honestly, my first flight on United was 40 years ago, so no bashing me for dissing United! AA knows me well, but NOT on out-of-US flights. (After the VX mess, they won't be seeing me at all [V]). I'd consider swimming if anyone asked me to fly Northwest to Asia again, too. Fortunately, thanks to VS/SQ, I don't have to do either one!
I hate agreements like this one, it makes all Americans look like money-grubbing greedy idiots. We're not. Yet some people I meet o'seas wonder why I don't reveal my US passport unless I truly have to! Meetings go downhill like a stone once they think I'm out to cheat them like some others have.
(Don't blame most Americans for our government! Let me go on record that I voted for the other guy...)
vs_itsallgood- dont worry I dont brand you all with the same brush- am currently in the process of becoming semi American anyway!
I flew DL across the pond to get back home from Uni in December and must admit that I was presently surprised by them- friendly crew and lovely 764s with AVOD and I got more miles than I would have done on a cheapo VS ticket.
It is interesting though all this Open Skies debate- I hope the French just dont do their usual thing which is do the exact opposite to what Britian want just to annoy us- if they do then this treaty could be agreed and that would be disatorus for the European industry- sure Euro carriers could operate from LHR but they would be forced to compete with American carriers who have huge governement subsidies in their own back yard. I wouldnt mind betting if it did get passed- the likes of AZ, IB etc would be gone forever.
I flew DL across the pond to get back home from Uni in December and must admit that I was presently surprised by them- friendly crew and lovely 764s with AVOD and I got more miles than I would have done on a cheapo VS ticket.
It is interesting though all this Open Skies debate- I hope the French just dont do their usual thing which is do the exact opposite to what Britian want just to annoy us- if they do then this treaty could be agreed and that would be disatorus for the European industry- sure Euro carriers could operate from LHR but they would be forced to compete with American carriers who have huge governement subsidies in their own back yard. I wouldnt mind betting if it did get passed- the likes of AZ, IB etc would be gone forever.
You know, now that the proposed US [:$] Hurlways-Delta merger is DOA, I'm going to go back to Delta full steam. If they'll match my AA level, they'll have my domestic business. In the 80's I gave them quite a bit, but they dropped many of my regular routes from 97 on. They've been picking them back up as business travelers are returning to flying rather than driving.
I've been avoiding Southwest for health reasons (legs and back), not to mention my cat travels with me and Southwest won't carry pets at all, not even in cargo. I think I will take another look at them, when Beryl is no longer traveling with me (he's 13+ and ill as I type this). They don't promise more than they deliver, and are usually on time. Alaska just doesn't go everywhere I need to go when I need to get there. Same for Jet Blue.
As far as the French... oh, no, I hope someone didn't read this and get any ideas, but it would be par for the course if they did just that! I agree with the end result: tanked carriers.
Fighting this proposal on the US side is next to impossible: the legacy carriers have very deep pockets and pay fortunes to their lobbyists. No single person can fight that effectively, but this news isn't being widely discussed in the US at all so we can band together and get the opposing views out there. Wonder why? Many US news agencies won't pick it up, for fear of accusations of anti-government sentiment clogging their phones and mail rooms, and/or false suppositions that the regular American could care less. [:?] Wrong! I care. Lots of people like me do.
How any politicians in DC can sleep at all, after writing such drivel for public perusal/detrimental legislation, is beyond me. Then again, if you watch US TV any length of time, you'll see scads of ads for any number of sleep aids.
[i]Here's an idea: maybe we should all chip in and open a pharmacy in the DC area! We'd make a fortune! [:w]
I've been avoiding Southwest for health reasons (legs and back), not to mention my cat travels with me and Southwest won't carry pets at all, not even in cargo. I think I will take another look at them, when Beryl is no longer traveling with me (he's 13+ and ill as I type this). They don't promise more than they deliver, and are usually on time. Alaska just doesn't go everywhere I need to go when I need to get there. Same for Jet Blue.
As far as the French... oh, no, I hope someone didn't read this and get any ideas, but it would be par for the course if they did just that! I agree with the end result: tanked carriers.
Fighting this proposal on the US side is next to impossible: the legacy carriers have very deep pockets and pay fortunes to their lobbyists. No single person can fight that effectively, but this news isn't being widely discussed in the US at all so we can band together and get the opposing views out there. Wonder why? Many US news agencies won't pick it up, for fear of accusations of anti-government sentiment clogging their phones and mail rooms, and/or false suppositions that the regular American could care less. [:?] Wrong! I care. Lots of people like me do.
How any politicians in DC can sleep at all, after writing such drivel for public perusal/detrimental legislation, is beyond me. Then again, if you watch US TV any length of time, you'll see scads of ads for any number of sleep aids.
[i]Here's an idea: maybe we should all chip in and open a pharmacy in the DC area! We'd make a fortune! [:w]
There's a (to my) a little bizarre segment in an article on this in The Sunday Times today, it says VS will invest £200 and create 500 jobs by expanding across Europe - to offer flights to America from continental European cities.
Wonder where these planes are going to come from?
Wonder where these planes are going to come from?
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
The one thing I am kind of amazed that nobody has mentioned in this thread is BD reaction to this, they have a fair number of LHR slots, I am pretty sure that if they could find the metal they would drop the short haul flights and start going head to head with VS.
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