Split - US Considering Requiring Visas for Brits?

Slightly o/t, I suppose, but a colleague of hubby's just returned from a holiday in Oz. At immigration, he witnessed a group of Greek nationals being 'processed'. The immigration staff were, apparently, the most courteous and helpful people you could wish to meet - but the Greek person being done could speak no English. He was asked a couple of simple things a few times, and also asked to read some text from a card, but when it was clear he didn't speak English, he was taken off somewhere. Hubby's colleague asked what would happen and apparently, he was to be held for about 24 hours and then sent back home.

I didn't know this was the procedure in Oz - but (and please throw stones now if you wish!) - I like it![y]


HighFlyer: Topic split from this thread to Off Topic forum

[Decker]

Claire

I'm a little unsure what your point is here - as in what was good about the procedure. You appear to be suggesting that because a Greek visitor to Oz could speak no English it was a good thing that he was not allowed to visit. Of course you might be suggesting that they wished to emigrate to Oz and that this should not be allowed if no English was spoken.

If you can clarify this I can choose the right stones .

Regards

Decker

I am completely against all racial, religious, national etc. profiling. I don't think it's right under any circumstances to allow this kind of prejudice. Perhaps it is safer, perhaps we should all be running for cover the moment we spot someone whose ancestory is not of british/US origin (what's that anyway?), perhaps we should bow down to the abattoir of civil liberties that is our current political system.

Is this a life you want to live?

45.

Then let's see who gets blown up first.

And whose citizens have gone mad under the political shackles of security.

I'm not sure I would want to live in this Brave New World of stereotyping and suspicion.

45.

[RichardMannion]

But lest not forget that the US already has profiling;

Not all countries qualify for VWP
API is sent over before any flight US bound leaves

Personally I am all for profiling or making sure people check out before allowing them to do something. Anyone that wants to join the forces here will need to declare any criminal record, I'd class that as profiling/criteria. I wholeheartedly support that - they decide the rules of play and if you want to play, you have to comply.

I have a rule for my car, no smoking. I hate smoke, so choose not to allow friends to smoke in my car. If they don't like it, then they can find alternative transport. I see the same principle here, but at a larger scale.

Thanks,
Richard

Originally posted by RichardMannion
API is sent over before any flight US bound leaves

Thanks,
Richard

You see this is the bit I don't get. A work colleague of mine was held at JFK for 3 hours recently when his name matched a man on the run whose wanted for a double murder in the USA !

Begs the question ... If he was that wanted why was he allowed to travel on the flight, and not detained in London ?

[Scrooge]

Darn good question..someone may of had the bright idea that it was easier to detain him here and not have to fight for extradition....

Actually I think they only check for people on the terrorist lists, checking very criminal bank against names would take hrs with the number of flights heading over the atlantic...of course I could be totally wrong about this...let me ask my friends at LAS and get back with a clear cut answer.

I have a rule for my car, no smoking. I hate smoke, so choose not to allow friends to smoke in my car. If they don't like it, then they can find alternative transport. I see the same principle here, but at a larger scale.

I don't think that's the same at all; your rule is based on the decisions of people. A national profiling relies on a prejudice of an entire people who have no choice over the actions of their fellow nationals. Likewise, a criminal record arises from the actions of a certain person who is then judged upon their choices which is not the same as a blanket profiling of a nationality. I too am all for the profiling of people according to choices and voluntary actions; not according to something over which they have no control.

I fear too that we may be forgetting that, although clearly not justified, the actions of these terrorists have been sparked by the actions of "the West" whether or not we support the original views of either "side." Many feel that we should be judging a majority (Pakistanis) by the actions of a very small minority (terrorists from Pakistan). Do you think too that we, the majority, should be judged, affected and possibly killed by these terrorists as a result of the actions of a minority, namely certain government figures on both sides of the pond, both current and past? One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

GJ, I am not for one minute suggesting that my opinion is necessarily the correct or only correct opinion but I feel that we should not look at this situation in a black and white way.

45.

Originally posted by Scrooge
Darn good question..someone may of had the bright idea that it was easier to detain him here and not have to fight for extradition....

Actually I think they only check for people on the terrorist lists, checking very criminal bank against names would take hrs with the number of flights heading over the atlantic...of course I could be totally wrong about this...let me ask my friends at LAS and get back with a clear cut answer.

Simple, it's because the FBI, the CIA, the DfHS, and all the other US agencies have separate computer systems and they haven't got a bloody clue between them on how to merge their data and do things in a consistent way. Oh, they do have a grand plan, but it's going to cost billions - no one has quite got a grip on it yet ... just when you were thinking that UK NHS IT systems were in trouble, magnify it for the US immigration and homeland security!

As for GJ's comments, self defeating as usual, how many people truly have free will and the ability to express it as a first comment? Secondly, comparisons between current extremism and Nazi Germany are facetious. There are too many differences and the politics are vastly different.

Like those poor Germans in 1933-1945 had no opportunity to push back against Hitler? I suggest, respectfully, that if any country is being unfairly targeted for the actions of a rabid minority, then the majority needs to take whatever steps are needed to cure the rabies. Elsewise, they surrender a goodly portion of their innocence and move more toward culpability.

I don't think those living within Nazi Germany had much of an idea of what was really going on. Ordinary citizens had little knowledge of what their leader was up to through a careful control of propaganda. Even those who did know what was happening to the Jews, for example, did not think what they were doing was wrong, on the whole, due to a ten year process of indoctrination. When some began to wake up to what was really happening, there was some resistance, such as the bomb plot of '44 which unfortunately did not manage to kill "The Fuhrer."

Having said that, your argument is certainly very persuasive and I will not be so stubborn as to blindly follow my point of view without acknowleding that perhaps both, or neither, of us is right. In any case, it matters little what we, the majority, think anyway.

45.

[RichardMannion]

Lets just wake up and face reality, every day that we live we have to in some way comply with rules/criteria that others have set en masse for us.

My smoking example was not satisfactory, so let's choose another. Stamp Duty in the UK, I class that as a Rich tax, because I have worked damn hard and want to buy a large house why do we have to pay more Stamp Duty than others? Just like 40% tax. It's one rule (rate of stamp duty/tax for one group and another set for another group. The UK Government have set these rules/profiles, I can either accept them or go and work/live elsewhere.

Thanks,
Richard

[Decker]

I don't think those living within Nazi Germany had much of an idea of what was really going on.

You might want to read Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust before you make statements like that.

Everyone supports some form of border control - so we're all prostitutes - we're just haggling price. If a religious sect sprang up who considered it their g-d given quest to kill all Deckers and there were 2,000 of them I'd call pretty strongly for them not to be allowed into the UK, and if they were a sub sect of Zoroastrians I'd like all Zoroastrians stopped and checked just to make sure.

Oops - I fear another case of Godwin's Law.

Cheers, Howard

[Decker]

Cute Your URL didn't work for me so tried this one

According to The Telegraph, it will only affect people with pakistani origins?

[Scrooge]

Listen, in the end as Richard said a couple of pages ago...every sovereign country has the right to set the rules for admittance across it's borders, if you don't agree with those rules the answer is simple, don't try to cross the border.

Yes this is racial profiling if the only people that have to get visa's are those of Pakistani decent, but you know what, if half the taliban were no holed up in caves along the Pakistan - Afghan border running training camps and if the cleric's at the islamic mosques would stick to religion rather than preaching open war against the western nations then who know's maybe, just maybe we could all live in peace.

Let me make this clear right now as well.

I am not painting every follower of Islam a terrorist, those that do not follow the bastardized versions of the religion are some of the warmest friendliest people you could ever meet...because of their religion and what it preaches, which sure as hell isn't kill the westerners.In the end down through the ages every religion has been used for an excuse to kill other human's, right now it is Islams turn.

Umm - hasnt this strayed a long way off topic?

The topic was "US requiring Visa's for all Brits" not a discussion of the socio-politic history of mankind and all its failings?

[Darren Wheeler]

Originally posted by MarkJ
Umm - hasnt this strayed a long way off topic?

The topic was "US requiring Visa's for all Brits" not a discussion of the socio-politic history of mankind and all its failings?

Quite right.

Perhaps it's time to put this tread to bed and anyone who wants to continue, start a new one in Off Topic??

The US Embassy in London has denied the story, so unless it is ever confirmed by an official, it ain't happening.

I can see I'm not going to win this one (and neither are any of us in a wider sense). I guess I'm just rather annoyed with this kind of prejudice at the moment following two of the same discussion this week on a similar topic where I found that the majority of my contemporaries are willing to swap carriages in a train if someone of pakistani origin boards the same one as them.

45.

[HighFlyer]

I've shifted this topic to the Off Topic forum, as current discussion is not *entirely* on topic, but none the less interesting.

Thanks,
Sarah

Originally posted by VS045
I can see I'm not going to win this one (and neither are any of us in a wider sense). I guess I'm just rather annoyed with this kind of prejudice at the moment following two of the same discussion this week on a similar topic where I found that the majority of my contemporaries are willing to swap carriages in a train if someone of pakistani origin boards the same one as them.

45.

If that was the case in the west midlands, or East midlands around Leicester, then they would have to walk!

Unfortunately, it's not like that down here; I've realised that I've never seen anyone of "non-British" origin in my village[n][:?]

VS.

I am a big fan of multi-culturalism so maybe I'm more suited to cities than rural middle-England[:?]

45.

Originally posted by VS045
I am a big fan of multi-culturalism so maybe I'm more suited to cities than rural middle-England[:?]

45.

We are very multi cultural in the Rural heartlands.
we have scots, irish and welsh, plus even some people from the next village [:o)][:o)]

[Decker]

I'm just fascinated as to how your friends could tell the difference between Indian and Pakistani purely on appearance...