Cabin Air Quality

On one of my usual trawls of useless info on the net I cam across an interesting article about cabin air quality its content sparked a memory in my mind about a flight I took with the dark side from Miami in March 2004. About two hours out of Miami I started to feel very clammy and suffered some minor breathing difficulties being asthmatic I took my meds as normal but had little effect I waited about 15 mins and went through a further cycle of my inhalers when this did not work I got the attention of a cabin crew member explained that I was having a few breathing difficulties and that I was very clammy.
Within a minute the Cabin Service Director came along and immediately got me in to a crew seat, which was brilliant, as I was stuck in econemy with the wife and a mad yank fussing over me as if I were dying. The C.S.D also asked if I needed medical intervention to which I declined being quite familiar with my asthma and being a registered nurse I felt I although suffering mildly was still in control of my symptoms. Finally the C.S.d said she would speak to the captain and ask him to bump up the air conditioning.

Within about 20 mins I was back to normal and the air quality in the cabin felt great so much so that I actually slept for about 4 hours and remained in the crew seat until we entered the landing pattern at LHR. I have no doubt in my mind that my symptoms were triggered by the poor air quality in the cabin and subsequently the "bumping up" of the air conditioning had alleviated the symptoms.

So anyway back to today I stumbled across this article on http://www.geocities.com/profemery/ente ... groom.html half way down the page there is a section on cabin airflows with two further links. Basically the article identifies that if one passenger complains about the poor air quality or is suffering any symptoms associated with hypoxia then the cabin crew can request the captain to power up any of the air conditioning packs that may have been turned off for the flight.

I find this very interesting and having read on this forum comments being made about air quality I though it would be in everyone’s best interest to maybe read the above links and know that they can request better air circulation in the cabin.
It would be very interesting to see if any VS crew comment on this subject.

I must add that BA’s response to me on the flight was top class and they looked after me brilliantly throughout the rest of the flight even waking me on occasions to see if I was ok. I am sure that Virgins crew response would have been just as good if I were in the same situation on a V-S flight.
I know this post is a bit long winded but I think it’s worth the read.

Thanks for reading this; I look forward to loads of responses.
Cheers Wayne

[Scrooge]

Hi Wayne,glad to see the BA crew came through for you.

You may want to take a look
here it's the Boeing webpage on cabin air quality.

Also love the tip at the bottom of the page on the site that you linked..of course he forgets the most important thing...double mileage and TP's [y]

I Have had these clammy type symptoms twice now. Once on VS to Boston Logan from Gatwick, and once recently on El Al from Frankfurt to Tel Aviv.

I had not made any connection to air quality. I thought I had food poisoning both times.

Thanks for the post.

I'm guessing when you had your attack of respiratory distress that the flight crew placed the air conditioning packs into "high-flow" mode, and possibly shut down the recirculation fans for a few minutes (there are four on the 747, only two are usually used during cruise flight) in order to force a very rapid and complete change of the air inside the fuselage.

You will change the entire volume of air in the entire aircraft (don't forget, the holds are pressurised too) within about 3 minutes if you do this on the 747.

Dropping the temperature of the zone you are in by a degree or so can often help as well - as you're often fighting this old wives tale of knocking the cabin temperature up so that the pax feel soporific.

Chances are that it wasn't the recirculation of the air itself causing the problem, but either the presence of an airborne allergen, or just the effects of the cabin altitude (probably about 7000ft) or the low relative humidity of the cabin air.

The flight crew breathe the same air as the rest of the plane, and they wouldn't choose to do anything that would endanger themselves or impair their abilities (while flying anyway... in the bar is a different matter ).

I'm glad that the crew responded positively to your distress and were serious about sorting the problem out.

I've personally noticed that I don't sleep well at all when the cabin air feels stuffy and the temperature is too warm. It causes my nose to block up and I wake up because I'm breathing through my mouth (which means I snore loudly). I'll often ask for the temperature to be knocked down a degree, which seems to make things feel much fresher, and I'll sleep easier.

Cheers,
Mike

Just to correct previous info, on the 747-400 there are 4 recirculation filters/fans which are all in use all flight, the difference is that in the 'cruise' the aircondition 'packs' (not the fans/filters) go into 'normal' flow as opposed to high flow. I suspest what the crew did in the above case was to turn down the temperature slightly, (which the cabin crew can do) and they possibly put the air-con into 'high flow' mode. But this does have an effect on fuel consumption so would not be generaly done especially on a long flight!
Glad you recovered quickly.

Originally posted by Golfman
Just to correct previous info, on the 747-400 there are 4 recirculation filters/fans which are all in use all flight, the difference is that in the 'cruise' the aircondition 'packs' (not the fans/filters) go into 'normal' flow as opposed to high flow. I suspest what the crew did in the above case was to turn down the temperature slightly, (which the cabin crew can do) and they possibly put the air-con into 'high flow' mode. But this does have an effect on fuel consumption so would not be generaly done especially on a long flight!
Glad you recovered quickly.

Thanks for that golf man
To my recollection the cabin service director went to the cockpit and asked the captain to bump up in her words the air conditioning. I have been on flights where temp has been regulated by cabin crew but I do believe that something different was done on this occasion.

I have 100% gratitude to the Cabin Service Director on that flight and after the initial breathing problems the flight turned out to be one of the best I have ever flown.

As you see on the link posted it mentions about the 4 air con packs on the 747 400 and refers to it being acceptable to use 3 but if a pax complains about poor air quality then the flight crew should re start the 4th pack.
I am interested to find from crew if indeed V-A or B-A routinely turn off the 4th pack and indeed if they turn it back on if a pax complains about air quality on the flight.
I have seen quite a few mentions in trip reports on this site mentioning poor cabin air quality especially on night flights and I would love to get some feedback of flight crew and other pax who may have suffered like myself on a flight.

Cheers Wayne

Originally posted by jerseyboy
As you see on the link posted it mentions about the 4 air con packs on the 747 400 and refers to it being acceptable to use 3 but if a pax complains about poor air quality then the flight crew should re start the 4th pack.

Three a/c packs, 4 recirc fans. By the sounds of it, golfman may have read a different 744 doc to me. Mine said "four recirc fans, only two are in use during normal cruise".

In cruise flight, it is normal for all three packs to be running, but in "normal flow".

I have seen quite a few mentions in trip reports on this site mentioning poor cabin air quality especially on night flights and I would love to get some feedback of flight crew and other pax who may have suffered like myself on a flight.

I'm pretty sure that you'll find it's people believing the aforementioned old wives' tale about making passengers soporific by keeping the cabin warm.

21-22C is probably the best temperature to keep the cabin at, and seriously, a couple of degrees change in temperature can make a lot of difference to your perception.

I know from meetings at my company, in a closed room with a recirculating air conditioner, after a while it gets very warm and stuffy, and dropping the thermostat by a degree or two makes all the difference to how the air feels, if you see what I mean?

Cheers,
Mike

I have certainly heard the old wives tales too. I would be interested to know what the fans and packs do. I assume the pack cools/heats where as the fan distributes? Also interested to know if the environment is full of bugs like the tales tell. I have also heard the opposite. I wonder if it is true? Do Cabin crew find they suffer from colds more than the rest of us?

On most modern planes (late model 747s, 757, 767 and probably the 777) pilots turn off one of the 2 or 3 available air-conditioning packs as part of their standard operating procedure - and they stay off unless a passenger complains.

I have heard of this many times before and I am sure that airlines DO turn off an A/C packs to save fuel. This mainly happens on overnight flights when passengers are likely to be asleep.

From my own point of view I do not like this as I find it hard to sleep if I am too warm. I would prefer a cooler Aircraft, I can always put on an extra layer of clothes, but other passengers may take offence if I take a layer of clothes off:D

As Airline operations are highly regulated/proceduralised: does anybody know what temperature is recommended for aircraft cabins?.

Originally posted by sailor99
Do Cabin crew find they suffer from colds more than the rest of us?

To my recollection, I've never seen a cabin crew member with as much as a sniffly nose. Have I just been lucky?

Also interested to know if the environment is full of bugs like the tales tell. I have also heard the opposite. I wonder if it is true? Do Cabin crew find they suffer from colds more than the rest of us?

I can't speak for the Cabin Crew, but 3 years ago my partner was very poorly with an infection which spread to her chest a few days after our flight to BOS. I had to take her to Hospital in Bangor where she had loads of treatment and then put on a course of Antibiotics.
The Doctor told us it is quite common to see this sort of infection in Airline passengers.

Originally posted by Tim
I can't speak for the Cabin Crew, but 3 years ago my partner was very poorly with an infection which spread to her chest a few days after our flight to BOS. I had to take her to Hospital in Bangor where she had loads of treatment and then put on a course of Antibiotics.
The Doctor told us it is quite common to see this sort of infection in Airline passengers.

...and that is probably more to do with being in close proximity with about 300 other people for 7 hours. If one of them is communicably sick, either through the air or indirect contact (e.g. touching something the sick person touched and left bacteria on), it's possible to become ill.

That's why it's important that planes are cleaned properly on turn around, and the lavs are checked from time to time during a long flight.

It's also another good reason that communicably sick people shouldn't be flying on commercial airliners!

Though in perspective, there's probably as much chance of getting sick as there is from going to the theatre or a gig, as that's a similar sort of enclosed space.

As regards turning a/c packs off, have a look at this pic from a UA flight deck, while the aircraft was in flight:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0165938/L/

If you look on the upper EICAS display (that's the upper middle screen), you'll see two text "memos":

"PASS SIGNS ON" - Seatbelt and No Smoking lit (probably bumpy)
"RECIRC FANS OFF" - Recirculating Fans off - meaning the cabin is being supplied with majority fresh air from the bleeds in the engine compressors.

If there was a pack off, you would have a "PACK X OFF" memo on the EICAS.

If high-flow was on, there would be a "PACK HIGH FLOW" memo.

So, all packs are on, but in normal flow, which is correct for cruise flight.

These pics from an SQ flightdeck shows the same thing:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0488157/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0258137/L/

In the first pic, all you can see on the upper EICAS memos is "PASS SIGNS ON". (I know it's blurry, but that's what it says.)
In the second one, the memo is clearly "NO SMOKING ON".

Finally, from an SAA 747-400:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0866495/L/

Nothing about "PACKS OFF".

Hopefully this debunks this myth.

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks for all of that info Mike, but of course you didn't show the sneaky money saving button hidden under the captain's seat.

Maybe they get 50cents for every dollar saved.[:o)]

Originally posted by dunbarm
Thanks for all of that info Mike, but of course you didn't show the sneaky money saving button hidden under the captain's seat.

One would assume that the flight crew are following company SOP, and they certainly wouldn't want to provide any photographic evidence of them breaking the company SOP - for example running with a pack off, when they should all be on (or if the conspiracy theory is true, the opposite, running with all packs on when the evil company SOP says there should be one pack off).

Another way to look at it is like this: If you switch one pack off, the other remaining active pack(s) have to work harder to make up for it, thus increasing wear and tear on the active pack(s) - meaning they will require maintenance sooner, so it still costs money.

What an amazing bunch of conspiracy theorists!

Mike

Originally posted by mike-smashing

Originally posted by dunbarm
Thanks for all of that info Mike, but of course you didn't show the sneaky money saving button hidden under the captain's seat.

One would assume that the flight crew are following company SOP, and they certainly wouldn't want to provide any photographic evidence of them breaking the company SOP - for example running with a pack off, when they should all be on (or if the conspiracy theory is true, the opposite, running with all packs on when the evil company SOP says there should be one pack off).

Another way to look at it is like this: If you switch one pack off, the other remaining active pack(s) have to work harder to make up for it, thus increasing wear and tear on the active pack(s) - meaning they will require maintenance sooner, so it still costs money.

What an amazing bunch of conspiracy theorists!

Mike

HI mike

I though that each pack had a set min/max output and that three would not work harder if the other was turned off. I have many colleagues of mine who see a very high number of sinus and chest infections from recent flight pax. I would be really interested in hearing of a cabin crew or flight deck member about what really happens with the fans and packs on the aircraft at night.
I am sure it is not a mass hallucination that the cabin air quality is worse at many night flights than it is on day flights. I also wish to know off cabin/flight deck crew what exactly they do when a pax is suffering from symptoms associated with poor air quality.

Cheers for all your inputs
wayne

Originally posted by hmvs_dog

Originally posted by sailor99
Do Cabin crew find they suffer from colds more than the rest of us?

To my recollection, I've never seen a cabin crew member with as much as a sniffly nose. Have I just been lucky?

Hi There
Normally the affect is not a sniffy nose it is more of a dry nose red blood shoot eyes and terrible head ache normally at the latter part if the flight.
Have you never seen the cabin crewmembers that look so whacked out that here eyes are red and they are in fowl unhelpful moods and seem to be on another planet.

Ok I know that sounds like all the crew on My travel and Thomas Cook but seriously many cabin crew members suffer after night flights but they adopt coping skills and over dose on artificial tears (optrex) and otrovine nasal sprays to lube their tube's[^]

Cheers Wayne
Only joking about My Travel and T/C Crew HONEST[y]

Originally posted by jerseyboy
I would be really interested in hearing of a cabin crew or flight deck member about what really happens with the fans and packs on the aircraft at night.

While I'm not a member of airline crew, I've got many friends in the aviation industry, and I'm a student pilot myself - though trying to learn to fly in the UK with it's fickle weather, while juggling a full-time day job isn't easy.

I've said what's supposed to happen, but it seems that you want to believe the various conspiracy theories.

Regards,
Mike

Originally posted by mike-smashing

Originally posted by jerseyboy
I would be really interested in hearing of a cabin crew or flight deck member about what really happens with the fans and packs on the aircraft at night.

While I'm not a member of airline crew, I've got many friends in the aviation industry, and I'm a student pilot myself - though trying to learn to fly in the UK with it's fickle weather, while juggling a full-time day job isn't easy.

I've said what's supposed to happen, but it seems that you want to believe the various conspiracy theories.

Regards,
Mike

I am very open minded about it but I would love to find out a bit more from flight deck/cabin crew.
good luck on your P/P/L
Cheers Wayne