Is Virgin PE "The Emperor’s New Clothes "

I have been wondering about the VS PE offering in light of the rumoured Configuration change to a mix of PE and EC upstairs on a 747 and looking at value delivered from this product: I appreciate that a lot of you will say if you don’t like it, etc etc and try flying BA WT+, however I thought I would look at the benefits and see if they stack up:

Benefits are as follows :

Wider Seat
More Legroom
Different meals
Priority boarding – is this a benefit, a lot of people like to board later. If I had lounge access, I would prefer to stay in that rather than board before EC
Priority baggage
Dedicated check-in- is this still a “perk” if you use OLCI
Miles bonus (depending on fare)
Higher cabin crew to passenger ration – not if the new configuration put 33 EC seats upstairs – pretty much as per the rest of EC..........
Increased Luggage
Priority Disembarkation –Not if the new configuration put 33 EC seats upstairs

So realistically, you get a wider seat with more legroom and better meal and your bags come off sooner (after UC I presume).

Looking at cost for this, on the I did a comparison on the flights we are taking on 11/9/12 to Cancun.

If we assumes the rumoured mixed configuration is on the top deck, PE seats for me and the other half come in at £2,662, for that I get a 38 Inch pitch and a 21 inch wide seat, and some nicer food. I also get 24,716 miles and 12 TP. I also get a 92 Kg baggage allowance. This means out total Personal Space would be 1596 Square inches (38*21*2)
If we went EC And wanted to guarantee extra space, we could buy 3 EC seats + extra Legroom for £2304, for this we get a 17Inch seat and 34 Inches of legroom, 14,382 Miles and 12TP, plus 69Kg baggage. If I fork out another £90 I can have lounge access too. This gives us a personal space of 1734 Square Inches (17*34*3)

So by my reckoning, we could have 136 Square Inches more personal space, Lounge access and a slight reduction in miles for a saving of £268 – or roughly 10%. I’m sure that not many people using PE take up their allocation of 2 bags, and I can get a damn good meal for £268 !

What confuses me even more, is that people are saying the configuration change is to get more PE seats in – based on the above calculations, they would be better off leaving the top deck all PE and extending the downstairs cabin as 2 PE seats generate more revenue than 3 EC seats – seems an odd decision.

So, my question remains, is VS PE the airline equivalent of “The Emperor’s New Clothes ?”

[Neil]

I just don't get your argument on this issue. Fine if you personally don't think some of the benefits of PE offering are worth it, many others do, and fine if you don't want to fly PE, many others do, there is nobody making you buy a PE ticket. I'm just a little confused as to what point you are trying to make and why? Do you want everyone to suddenly stop flying PE?

The hard facts are the VS PE offering is a very popular product and one that offers many extra benefits compared to its competitors. You will often see flights with UC and PE full when Y is only half full, so the fact people are paying for any flying PE suggests that the product is good and in demand, so fare paying pax are obviously happy to spend their money on it.

Also, just because you buy three Y seats doesn't mean you will get three Y seats in a row. As only 2 people will check in, the third ticket will be classed as a no show and could well be reallocated to someone else.

Regarding the issue of, why aren't VS just keeping all PE on the upper deck, yes PE was (not 100% sure it still is) the most profitable seats on the a/c, the majority of pax still want to fly Y, especially on B&S type routes that the LGW 747's fly to, so by making the change, they still increase the PE cabin while keeping as many possible Y seats as they can.

Neil

Virgin's PE product is (in my opinion) the best PE offering out there except for NZ's, which only competes on the LAX route at the moment.

I haven't heard a compelling enough argument for any other PE product to make mbe switch.

[Pete]

I'm pretty sure that if you state at the time of booking that you want two seats for one person, they can handle that. Might need to get Tony in on this thread, but being a 'gentleman of size', he's done this in the past to save the problem of having half of him in the next seat.

However... the gotcha is that in economy the arm rests don't go all the way up to give you a flush seat back. So whether that negates the value of the extra space is rather up to your view of it.

With regard to the pricing difference, that's a bit of a lottery. Sometimes the delta between the two is practically nothing. Often a flexible economy fare is more expensive than a K fare in Premium. Depends on the route / time of year / availability and countless other factors that the revenue team at VS tinker with.

Then there's the pot luck of which aircraft you get and which seats you are allocated. Last time I flew in PE (prior to the introduction of the new style seats) I was downstairs on the 747 three-abreast. Not pleasant. Row 64+ up the back would have been better.

Personally, if you're considering PE, then it means you're budget would be better spent on an upgradeable Economy fare with some miles thrown at it to get into Upper. Since you can collect miles on card spend, at Tescos and various other places, it doesn't take long to build up a tidy cache which can make an annual holiday really rather special.

[Scrooge]

Yes you can book 2 seats for one person in economy, you will only pay the APD for one person.

My understanding is that if you buy an extra seat just because you want one (or because you have a cello!) is that you do not get a baggage allowance for it so your baggage calculations are distorted. You would still only get the 1*23kg allowance per person (though of course you can buy more if you want to but you can buy more if you travel in PE and UC)

Your calculations are also premised on getting an extra leg room seat in Y which is not guarenteed. Also on some planes the extra leg room seats are only in rows 2 seats abreast - so choose the 'wrong' flight or there is a plane change and your stuffed

It is all very well trying to calculate personal space but whilst you get A space for 3 Y seats and B space for 2 PE the space in Y is spread latterally wheres as in PE it is in front of you and your legs remain straight infront of you whereas to get the benefit of it in Y you have to sit more at an angle - something the seats (and their padding) are not designed for.

And as Pete says in Y the arm rests do not go all the way up and again in some seats the arm rests are totally fixed.

Also why would the CC to pax ratio in PE on the top deck change (downwards) just because some Y seats are moved up there. Staffing ratios for J and Y remained the same when the upper deck on the LHR fleet was split.

I'm not asking everyone to stop flying PE - I'm merely asking a question - I also understand that PE is a very popular product that people like, this leads to the question of why are VS potentially moving some of the PE seat out of the bubble to replace with EC. Surely, if it's that popular leave them as is, extend PE downstairs and all the people that love PE will have more chance of getting a PE seat and they will pay for the “exclusivity” of the bubble.

I notice someone mentioned pot luck on seating allocation - why is that different in PE ? there is no guarantee of the bubble or seats together - you could still end up in a 4 seat config downstairs ?

In terms of the staffing issues, are you suggesting that because they are now proposing to put 30/33 EC seat on the upper deck they will increase the crew up there ? currently there are 40 seats in "the bubble" and the new config would be 20 PE and 30 / 33 EC - surely that’s more pax per CC ?

As I said, I have no axe to grind, I am just asking a question as I see it – we don’t all have to have the same opinion, but to me I think there is a lot of people believing the VS “Spin” rather than looking at what they are really being told. I know some people think that PE is the best product out there, others disagree and I have never flown with VS at all before let alone PE so I will reserve judgement until I have. I was simply asking the question as to whether people see it as being as good as a lot of people on here seem to think it is.

For reference, I looked at a PE fare with VS to LAX, I was quoted over £2,500 for PE and £468 in EC – 5 times the price. I did the comparison with Air NZ – the PE option with them was £1,800. Just because someone used to be a class leader doesn’t mean they should take their eye of the ball.........................

[Pete]

Pot luck on seating is the same over the whole plane. You can request seats, but nothing is guaranteed.

[Nottingham Nick]

In simple terms, the people who claimed that they loved the Emperor's non-existent new clothes were only fooling themselves.

The people, myself included, who happily shell out repeatedly for the PE product are doing so with their eyes open and know exactly what they are getting for their money.

I will concede that some of the prices you are quoting for PE seats would be far more than I am prepared to pay, but each to their own.

The clue is in the title, PE isn't a business class product, it is an enhanced economy seat. If VS consistently priced them far too high, then the seats simply wouldn't sell.

Nick

Virgin's PE product is (in my opinion) the best PE offering out there except for NZ's, which only competes on the LAX route at the moment.

and Hong Kong

I never understood mixing UC and Y upstairs so it makes sense to fix that. PE/Y is at least logical.

It is not just square inches that add to the attraction of PE. The seat is wider, longer, reclines more and is way more comfortable to sit on for hours.
The food service is a lot nicer and served on proper crockery.
Welcome drinks, private cabin (340-600) dedicated check-in - all this makes it a much better economy experience. It is not attempting to be a down graded business class.

As for price - it is probably double for an advance purchase restricted K ticket which it needs to be in order to offer the enhancements from Y. The key thing is you can upgrade into UC for half the miles of Y and earn a lot more for the same journey - better to measure not in square inches but in levels of personal comfort.

Personally I think we're being a bit harsh on the OP here. I'm not disputing (or for that matter, qualified to opine) that VS's PE offering is still competitive compare with rival products, but is there perhaps a case of them thinking that they can lower standards a bit and still stay one step ahead of the competition?

If so, it's certainly fair in terms of business sense, but it probably grates a bit with regular PE flyers...

Virgin's PE product is (in my opinion) the best PE offering out there except for NZ's, which only competes on the LAX route at the moment.

and Hong Kong

NZ uses the 777-200 to HKG which hasn't been refitted with the new cabin yet. It's still 3-3-3 in PE. The 777-300 on the LHR-LAX-AKL route is the only one in NZ's network offering the new cabins.

[Neil]

Personally I think we're being a bit harsh on the OP here. I'm not disputing (or for that matter, qualified to opine) that VS's PE offering is still competitive compare with rival products, but is there perhaps a case of them thinking that they can lower standards a bit and still stay one step ahead of the competition?

If so, it's certainly fair in terms of business sense, but it probably grates a bit with regular PE flyers...

I don't actually think that is the case though.
The PE cabin or offering hasn't suffered with the same issues of cuts/reductions like are often mentioned for UC, and if anything has had a lot of investment and improvements over the last few years.

As has been mentioned it is an enhanced economy at a price, especially during sale times, offers some very nice extras over the standard Y offering, along with the bigger, wider seat and more legroom.

It is still in my opinion the best PE offering out there at the moment and I would say this is backed up by how popular the route is. I know quite a few people who actually think for a day flight to somewhere short like NYC it is actually a better choice than UC, given the big difference in cost and short flight time (granted those people often have lounge access already due to Au cards etc).

I'd agree with that. I don't really see the need to pay cash or miles for UC on most day flights. Even PVG-LHR at 12 hours was nice and comfortable in PE.

I’m not feeling people are being harsh ! compared to some message boards this one seems nice and friendly 

I suppose part of the trend of increasing fares is down to the fact that a lot of business people now fly PE as opposed to UC – hard times call for hard measures and I guess companies are looking at reducing costs wherever possible. The knock on for this is that VS must have noticed this trend and adjusted prices accordingly and as such Joe Public ends up competing with more business travellers and paying the price for it. That’s all well and good on a traditional “business” route (thinking North America, HK etc) but on leisure routes (Mainly out of LGW / MAN) I wouldn’t have thought this was the case.

I am not decrying the VS PE offer – far from it. The fact that we have booked it for our holiday means something (although as we booked through VH, we got a significant discount on the upgrade  ) I just think that VS always prided itself on being a class leader and for me and from what I have seen there are other carriers that offer a better PE product – thinking specifically Air NZ. I always thought VS wanted to be seem as innovate and forward looking and with the enhancements from Air NZ (both PE and there skycouch in EC) VS are now somewhat lagging behind.

I just think for double the EC money, VS could “sweeten” the deal more – like offering Noise Cancelling headphones, maybe a lounge access – maybe not Virgin Clubhouses, but a proprietary lounge at each airport- such as a serviceair lounge, or at LGW / Man V-Room for all PE customers.

I think it will be interesting to watch Air NZ and how the product they have launched is roiled out – with it being such a small route at the moment, it’s like a niche product, but I’m sure if it proves successful, other carriers will have to adopt a similar offering – for me, if I had to choose any carrier to fly to LAX (Which I may have to do shortly for work) I would look to Air NZ first. Surely, that’s the type of thin VS want to achieve ?

One real downside to PE is when you find economy is near empty and you could have had 3 economy seats to spread out on! They should make the armrests moveable. Re PE vs Y, I can sleep in PE but not economy so for o/n flights it's brilliant. I get a numb arse in economy and there's no neck support in the seat. I agree sometimes the PE prices are not at all worth it but many many times, my route NYC-LHR, is often just around $150 more on this leg, which I think is great value.

I used to fly Y on my daytime flights and used to think that PE wasn't worth the extra fare but having tried it once, I've tried to ensure that all my daytime flights are in PE if I can snag the K fare. I'd personally rather pay for PE than gamble that Economy will be free and from what I've experienced, the priority boarding is an additional incentive

My views on the PE product and it's variability etc are well documented in other threads, so I will not repeat them here.

Taking your question literally - my answer is largely, "no".

I think the VS PE product is one of the least spun aspects of the overall VS product set, and it largely delivers as promised. This is hampered by the inconsistency of delivery as noted by many V-Flyers.

In terms of "worth the money" - well, as this is pretty subjective, and the price differential varies hugely, there is no single answer - everyones will be different based on preference and last price experience.

Also, in terms of comparing with other offerings, it's very difficult as the price differential is a significant factor for me - I might for example accept an inferior product if the uplift in cost is minimal - WTP is a good example.

VS PE remains a good product, if the prices get consistently higher, and the service degraded little by little, it may not quite be as good, especially if other airlines up their game as BA have started to do with the improved meal service.

Now, if the un-verified reports that the A330 PE seat pitch is slightly less, then that might just be the start of degrading the product, or could be a temporary measure due to UC incorporation later - as usual with VS, there are many plausible explanations/rationale, but no official "truth".

As another example, take the huge thread on the rumoured config of the newly refitted LGW/MAN fleet - we have a posting from a known reliable source - however, it is not "official" VS "truth" and therefore, speculation is just that - speculation. When the re-fitted aircraft start appearing, we'll know - I guess.

In the end, customer satisfaction and passenger numbers will tell the story - speaking personally, my VS brand loyalty is more of an emotional tie to a fondly remembered past than anything else, and as my future bookings will demonstrate, my loyalty has now been replaced by best value for me, my circumstances, rewards and route network/alliance that best suit my family and I. The majority of my flying in the future probably won't be with VS, although time will tell.

Now, if the un-verified reports that the A330 PE seat pitch is slightly less, then that might just be the start of degrading the product, or could be a temporary measure due to UC incorporation later - as usual with VS, there are many plausible explanations/rationale, but no official "truth".

Having just been on the A330 in PE, I would say the legroom is a lot less than on the 747. I'm of average height and when the person in front reclined the seat was touching my knees. Now, this didn't happen to me in the bubble. It's just a bit inconsistent isn't it?

I think that PE is a good product on VS, but, I think so many people have been used to the bubble that it slightly alters expectations.

If they advertise a 38" pitch surely that have to provide it ? I have never flown PE in the bubble, but I have flown Business with Cathay up there (a long time ago! ) and BA, and I did enjoy the bubble - to be honest it is poart of the reason we booked PE. Hopefully as we have booked with VH, we will get seat in the bubble as they requested it when we booked.

[Neil]

As per this page on the VS site the seat pitch in PE is 37 to 38".

I have been looking on Trip Advisor recently, and a lot of people on TA are suggesting BA is now a much better bet than VS - most peopole complaining the service is not great and it's way too expensive for what it is compared to BA and others. Main complaints seem to be around lack of working IFE and poor food. A few people are saying that the new WTP+ service is now better than VS PE.

A lot of people seem saddened that VS are on the slide and no longer see them as a class leader.

I'm reserving judgement as I have never flown with VS before, but the groundswell of opinion on an independent site seems to be that VS are no longer the choice to make !

Well, it's the ground-swell of people posting - just how independent that is, I wouldn't like to say.

Yes, WTP is strong compeition, but I think the VS product still has the edge provided that the crew are motivated and engaged on those flights.

The IFE issues will get "fixed" by the re-fits - I guess the question is, has it taken too long and the customers patience has run out?

I don't disagree that the BA competition is hotting up.....

I have two return flights in VS PE coming up, so will see how that goes...

[Neil]

I have been looking on Trip Advisor recently, and a lot of people on TA are suggesting BA is now a much better bet than VS - most peopole complaining the service is not great and it's way too expensive for what it is compared to BA and others. Main complaints seem to be around lack of working IFE and poor food. A few people are saying that the new WTP+ service is now better than VS PE.

A lot of people seem saddened that VS are on the slide and no longer see them as a class leader.

I'm reserving judgement as I have never flown with VS before, but the groundswell of opinion on an independent site seems to be that VS are no longer the choice to make !

I have to say I am still confused as to what you are trying to achieve.

You have future VS PE flights booked (first time VS PE), but you seem to just want to find negatives about it all the time, for what purpose?

You have had many people on here tell you that they think VS PE is better than WT+, have you posted on the TA forum saying that we think it is a lot better than WT+?

And just to 100% clarify, we are a 100% independent site, with no official links to Virgin. You may have a misconception because we are a site about Virgin we are always blindly positive of VS and their products, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The good thing about V-Flyer, is that our ratings are linked to detailed Trip Reports, rather than just a blanket statement that doesn't require any justification or reasoning.

Thanks,
Neil