VA vs BA on Operational Upgrades?

Hi everyone - I'm a long-time BA flyer but decided to switch to Virgin last year, since VA was good enough to status match my BA Gold I fly to the US pretty regularly, in Premium Economy.

Now, on BA, I used to get Op-Up'ed maybe 1 in every 4 flights, either from WT+ to Club or sometimes if I was ticketed in Club, then bumped to F. On Virgin, I've never been upgraded …

Obviously, BA doesn't want to upgrade people unless it has to, so rather than it being a "Virgin doesn't do Op-Ups" policy thing, I suspect it's just because it's either better at selling upgrades or it doesn't find it needs to move people around quite so much.

One observation is that Virgin seems to have a more premium mix, so they (more or less) sell out PE and UC but the economy cabin is often 1/3 or 1/2 empty, therefore there's nobody being bumped from Economy to PE, and therefore nobody being pushed into UC from PE...

BA often sells out the back of the bus on busy routes (like LHR-SEA) and since there are relatively few WT+ seats, it feels like a higher chance of being bumped into Club if you're ticketed there, have checked in early, have status etc.

Does this sound feasible or am I missing something else?

[Nottingham Nick]

Welcome to V-Flyer.

I can't comment on the recent treatment of Golds, but the lack of op-ups was the main reason I stopped chasing Virgin status many years ago.
In the halcyon early days of V-Flyer, when I was Gold, I would spend a lot of my own money doing 'gold runs' to maintain my status. In return, I was invited to gold events and got a fair number of op-ups.
Two things then happened - VS increased the number of tier points required to maintain gold and the op-ups / gold events dried up - hence I switched my budget to maintaining my Marriott status instead of airline status - a decision I have never had cause to regret.
This is purely my own experience - YMMV.

Nick

I think you'll find that unless you start flying more in CW that BA will stop op-upping you!

More often than not its algorithms (called DUT that generates the lists of who gets offered an op-up) chose regular WTP passengers to op-up into CW on the basis that they will like it so much they will cough up the ££$$€€ to pay for it as a preference over passengers with status.

If they don't start to convert then they will drop down the order the next time they are on a flight that needs the cabins shuffling around. Status does come into play but apparently less so that previously.

One thing both airlines don't do (unlike our transatlantic cousins do on domestic routes) is upgrade people just because there is space in a premium cabin. It's very much "want business pay for business" (and neither does the 'just to be nice as it's your birthday / honeymoon etc upgrade)

Whether VS is offering less op-ups because they are better at managing sales (i.e. don't oversell PE) than BA I don't really know. They both offer cheaper upgrades (i.e. cheaper than the fare difference) in manage my bookings and both offer on the day paid for upgrades (though not for avios though VS do take miles. VS also has the bid system that BA doesn't which means they know they have some people willing to pay and how much they want to pay and can dip into that list rather than op-up someone for free.

Of course VS may still be op-upping people just not you! Like BA VS is more sophisticated than in the past at selecting who to upgrade and yes would rather people paid for an upgrade which is why on some flights where they have oversold economy or premium and need to shift people up VS staff are actively walking the queues offering miles and cash upgrades. People on here have reported that they declined the offer but found themselves op-uped anyway. Still if the person farther down the queue does cough up then that op-up would have vanished!

Perhaps something of a contrary viewpoint. We have been op-upped twice on VS once in August on the outbound to Grenada (A330) and once also in August on return from Barbados (747). Both times all 4 of us were upgraded from Premium to Upper Class with our party a mix of Red/Silver in terms of status. My personal view is that op-ups are once in a blue moon (despite our fortunes) and I definitely don't build them into my expectations at all. Airlines are businesses and even though op-ups generate goodwill they are typically only given if there is a need, as in our cases where Premium was overbooked and there was space in Upper. Obviously we were at most Silver so perhaps this is more of a regular feature for Golds?

So... I am lucky enough to have a fair bit of experience in this area on both VS and BA, with both status & non-status.

BA

On BA, the algorithm chooses who gets Op-Up'd and who doesn't. Non-status, Blue, Bronze and Silver are more likely to get upgraded than Gold because BA's algorithm views them as more valuable as they MAY choose to fly J in future over W. So the algorithm is essentially courting them. They already have a Golds loyalty, so there is less need to be persuasive with them.

I had about 3 Op-Ups in a single year on BA when Silver from W to J, primarily on LHR>JFK on the Super High J 744s.

It's understood than once you have more than 3 Op-Ups in a single year, the algorithm drops you to the bottom of the list. It doesn't mean you will never get another Op-Up (there are reports of more than 3), but it's just a lot less likely.

BA do sell on the day upgrades on the day, but I found they were few and far between in comparison to VS - due to the fact BA can deploy these more easily through their mobile app than VS can. The amount of times I have bought an upgrade on a BA shorthaul due to the app pinging me an upgrade offer, I can't even count. This kind of thing never happens with VS because their infrastructure does not support it.

VS

I've heard continually about VS not doing Op-Ups, and I'd take this opportunity to dispel this myth. Maybe they used to do a lot more, and now they do less. But they certainly do it. Believe me. One of my common routes (HKG), I have flown 6 times and been upgraded half the time for free, the other half with miles on the day - so much so that i've only flown in my booked class (Premium) one leg out of that total.

As far as I know the VS process is more manual than BA. I may be wrong, but I don't *think* they have an algorithm. Ultimately nobody outside of revenue management would really know. And I have tried to ask a number of people - FSM's, FSS's, Crew, Lounge Managers and Outstation Managers - nobody could tell me, and the ones I suspect that did know, wouldn't tell (for obvious reasons).

At LHR, the senior check-in supervisor (usually dressed in red uniform) carries a clipboard of known no-shows, potential Op-Ups and Uniq's coming through T3 that day. They know which flights are overbooked, and will require shuffling around. In my experience, at LHR, this is almost never done at check-in. They will wait until check-in closes and then work out who needs to be moved and what is to be done.

The decision on who to move and where too, I *think* is based on a mix of the following -

• Cabin fare bucket. I have NEVER been upgraded on a K. But have on H, S and W. The higher the fare bucket - the more favourably you are looked on. Which makes sense, somebody who has bought the last W and paid a lot of money for it, deserves to be moved to UC more so than somebody who may be Gold, but booked a K fare months in advance.
• Check in sequence. My usual strategy, is check in as late as physically possible. With BA, this is pointless as the algorithm has already decided if you are getting moved or not. As VS is more manual, this can often have an effect. I'll cite my recent HKG return... No upgrades available at check-in for cash or miles. I knew the flight was overbooked in Premium as Expert Flyer had W0 and Upper was J4. I was given a boarding pass for my Premium seat, and the upgrade only happened when I tried to board the aircraft. The ground crew had a hand written piece of paper with two names on it - mine and somebody else's - with pre-printed boarding passes for Upper. I was Seq 259 out of a possible 264.
• Status. I am Gold, and have been for a while now (3 years? with 2 as Silver before that). And I rarely get beyond the 1500tps mark. So I think this has some effect on things. Personally, I think status is used as the tie breaker when two people need Op-Up'ing but there is only one seat in the higher class. I never had any Op-Ups as silver, but that doesn't mean they don't happen.
• Number of times previously upgraded. I don't think this makes a difference on VS, like it does with BA. I am not even convinced they track it. This year alone, I have had more than 3 Op-Up's from Premium to Upper and I still have at least 6 more flights to go before the end of the year. Whenever you get Op-Up'd, you get moved to G class and will have to retroactively claim the miles for the underlying fare (that being said, recently the miles have credited automatically, so this issue may have been fixed now). So I don't think the computer knows the difference between a normal G and one VS assigns in this scenario. But I do believe there is a note on your account to show it was a freebie and not a paid mileage upgrade.
• Booking direct with VS makes no difference. 99% of my travel is done through a travel agent and this has never seemed to influence Op-Up's - but it does make messing with the ticket in other ways impossible.

Well, thats most of my knowledge on the subject. Based on flying both BA and VS regularly and hunting for upgrades like a sport. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten as many as I have.

Ultimately, the biggest tip I have is - DO NOT RELY ON OP-UP's! If you can, use miles to upgrade at the airport, they are by far the best deal most of the time and mileage upgrades are very often opened up at the airport on the day, in the hope of avoiding Op-Up'ing people. I have snagged many a miles upgrade on W0 flights, if I never took the upgrade, it would have been the Op-Up lottery. Also, Premium is the most common cabin for Op-Up's due to its size relative to Y and J.

Happy v-flying!

This is probably one of the more disappointing aspects of staying loyal to VS. Not that I expect something for free but it's disappointing when Delta FFs are using their upgrade vouchers to get upper class on VS metal whilst I dont get the same opportunities for being Gold and choosing to stay loyal to Virgin. I wish I was as savvy and lucky as CommanderB because I get a different story on how to upgrade everytime I contact Virgin. The one complimentary upgrade I got, from W to G, I was told by the FC line it'd be $4,900 (!), then when I checked in the desk said it'd be at least $1,200 and when I enquired about using miles she pointed me to a different desk (JFK) where the lady gave it to me complimentary. I've also had those at the check in at LHR tell me "we can't do upgrades, you need to call the FC number." Her colleague eventually corrected her and I was pointed to another desk where I'm given the same offer as everyone else, $1,200.

I clearly like the brand as I fly them a lot and I dont want to sound like I'm whining because I didn't get something for free but it's discouraging when you stay loyal to a brand but you get the same offers as everyone else and flyers with status from another airline get better opportunities.

Thanks for the perspectives above, everyone. I've flown 3 returns from LHR - US since posting this, all in PE, and never got a sniff of an op up (I did get one mileage redemption though, by calling FC in advance. In fact, the leg I upgraded was booked in H class with the return in S, and I'd seen on ExpertFlyer that the outbound leg had redemption availability... called FC and they didn't point out that I should be able to upgrade H to G

Interesting point about time to checkin, CommanderB - as a former BA loyalist, I always try to get as low a Seq No as possible but maybe next time I'll check in when I get to the airport rather than online ...