Premium Economy overbooking

Is it true that Virgin regularly overbook PE and if you hold a PE ticket and check in after all PE seats have been given I will be downgraded?[?]

There is truth in what you say, but it is not the whole story.

All airlines overbook as a matter of course. Personally I don't like it, but it is a necessary outcome of offering flexible tickets. If you are on an overbooked flight then the airline may ask to down grade you, and they will offer generous compensation. They may also move you to another flight (with the airline your booked or another) and once again offer compensate you. Or they may delay you, and again offer compensation. Or, and cross your fingers here, they may offer to up-grade you (although there is a pecking order on this with golds at the top of the pile!)

Either way, down grades are not common - as common as hen's teeth. So please do not worry yourself. Remeber also that you can use On Line Check in, if the possibility of being bumpped is a concern. It doesn't guarantee that you won't be bumpped, but it makes a difference.

You never know you might get bumper "UP"[}:)]or be given 50K airmiles as a thankyou, every cloud can have a silver lining.

Now what is there that is rarer than hens teeth.

I will do on-line check in this end, but is it worth checking in early at Downtown Disney Check-in for my return. If I was downgraded would it be worth accepting say a return delay (say the following day) and if so what are the advantages of doing this? Sorry so many questions.[:#]

I have never used downtown disney check in, so will let others comment on that rather than give you a reply that is wrong.

If you are downgraded, I would suggest you discuss a delay as an option. It may not be available, but if you are able to do it then it may be a better option for you. After all you get to spend more time on holiday I guess. The compensation would be different between the two options, but that would come out in the discussion. If it happens, do remember you will get a better result from a calm but assertive discussion with the VS staff.

May I ask why you are so concerned about this issue - have you seen some advanced booking information that is concerning you?

I've only been asked if I would "accept" a downgrade once. The conversation went something like this:

Checkin Agent: The Premium Economy cabin is overbooked today Sir so we are having to downgrade some passengers. Would you be prepared to downgrade today?

Me: Not really. See, my ticket has "No downgrades" written on it, so I don't think it's an optio I'm afraid.

CA: Oh, I see sir. Well in that case, I'll have to upgrade you. Would that be OK?

Me: (Sound of teeth sinking in to bite off outstretched hand before it's withdrawn) That would be lovely thankyou.

Chris

Chris your story brings out a valid point I had failed to make. If downgrades are inevitable, the airline will seek voluntary downgrades first. Only in the last resort will forced downgrades be used.

Hi,

The only reason I am a bit worried is last year we booked PE as a treat outbound was fantastic, but on return flight was cancelled and we were downgraded to EC, which was a bit upsetting. Obviusly if a flight is cancelled that is beyond anyone's control, but on various forums I keep reading about this overbooking and obviously I don't want to be downgraded again.[:0]

Oh - What happened then about compensation?

No compensation offered. They did ask if we wanted to stay over night and travel back PE the following day, but that was not an option through my husband's work committments, so all we received was a refund of the PE supllement paid.

It's not just PE that's over sold, every cabin is!!

Originally posted by Gill Smith
No compensation offered. They did ask if we wanted to stay over night and travel back PE the following day, but that was not an option through my husband's work committments, so all we received was a refund of the PE supllement paid.

I can see why you are concerned. To be honest, this is totally contrary to my understanding of what should have happened. I think it best for me to wait until one of our experts on this area is around to try and explain what happened. All I can say is that were I to have been in your shoes I would have been furious.

Originally posted by sailor99

Originally posted by Gill Smith
No compensation offered.

All I can say is that were I to have been in your shoes I would have been furious.

Hmm, its impossible to give a firm answer why without knowing all the details, so I won't! BUT... you mentionned "on return flight was cancelled" so that would suggest that the problems last year were not because of overbooking but because of some kind of cancellation (whether operational/weather/technical etc).

In the event of a cancellation the airline will attempt to rebook you by what ever means, ideally to the cabin you're booked in, but sometimes there arent the seats so a downgrade might be needed.

They can offer to put you up overnight if the same cabin isnt available at their cost and fly you out the next day in the same cabin, which they did.

If the Delay was for technical/meteorological or in some circumstances operational reasons then there wouldn't necessarily be any compensation due.

Airlines are not liable to pay for delays due to these reasons (and for fairly good reason, no one wants a Captain 'chancing it' with the weather or a technical fault because the carrier could be liable for large compensation bills!!!).

Under these circumstances you may ask for a 'Goodwill gesture' (Especially if there are mitigating circumstances such as a very long delay or lack of information), though a year on that would be difficult to prove.

Anyway as we don't know the full details all of the above could be irrelevant... but it sounds like the refund was the only thing due.


Generally though you really shouldn't worry about downgrades as they are very rare... and if you check in on time (or a bit early), especially on line or have an advanced seat reservation, or a frequent flyer card... they become even less likely.

Hi,

Thanks for all your replies. If I was to be downgraded through over booking would I then be entitled to compensation and if yes what could i expect as I would like to know where I stood in case of such a disappointment.[:?]

Originally posted by Gill Smith
I would like to know where I stood in case of such a disappointment.[:?]

Ideally the airline is going to make an offer at checkin when they are expecting a cabin to be overbooked. If the flight is very overbooked then the offer can be very generous (I paid some student debt off by accepting three days worth of being 'bumped' by Air France 10 years ago!).

However if not enough volunteers come forward then a refund of the fare difference and some compensation should be offered.

As far as I'm aware this ammount is not set in any regulation, but dependant on the individual circumstances.

Some passengers have (there was a thread on here I remember recently) deliberately tried to get themselves 'bumped' to get the money, a night in a hotel and an extension to their holiday, but thats rare.

But to repeat, involuntary downgrading should be a very rare situation.

Originally posted by Gill Smith
If I was to be downgraded through over booking would I then be entitled to compensation and if yes what could i expect as I would like to know where I stood in case of such a disappointment.[:?]

According to the EU Air Passenger Legislation (Article 10 - Upgrading and downgrading):

2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class
lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall
within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3),
reimburse
(a) 30 % of the price of the ticket for all flights of 1 500 kilometres or less, or
(b) 50 % of the price of the ticket for all intra-Community
flights of more than 1 500 kilometres, except flights
between the European territory of the Member States and
the French overseas departments, and for all other flights
between 1 500 and 3 500 kilometres, or
(c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling
under (a) or (b), including flights between the European
territory of the Member States and the French overseas
departments.

Artice 7(3) states:

3. The compensation referred to in paragraph 1 shall be
paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank
cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in
travel vouchers and/or other services.

So, to summarise:
If an airline places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it must refund:

All flights 0-1500km: 30% of the price of the ticket
EU flights over 1500km: 50% of the price of the ticket
Ex-EU flights 1500km-3500km: 50% of the price of the ticket
Ex-EU flights over 3500km: 75% of the price of the ticket

My interpretation is that this should be the minimum you get back for an involuntary downgrade...(i.e. if the airline offer you more, bite their hands off )...but I'm confirming that at the moment.

Cheers

Michael

[RichardMannion]

Hi Gill,

To reiterate, downgrades are uncommon. In 7 years of flyign VS, I have only once been offered to downgrade, strangely enough on the MCO route. I was due out on the later flight, but it was delyaed, and would have meant me potentially missing my connecting flight, so they moved me to the earlier flight but said nothing was available in Premium and would I downgrade to Economy (Upper Class was not avaialbe at the time as it was booked full). I said no, and left it with them to sort out as I had a V.Touch appointment. When check-in closed Upper was not full so they moved me up to Upper.

The compensation for downgrades is currently under review following a recent conversation I had with them whilst researching the next version of the VBook. The Voluntary downgrade compensation is fine, but the invol downgrade compensation is somewhat harsh to be honest, so this is being reviewed as we speak.

In regards to your previous expereince, something seems astray as that appears to be the wrong level of compensation. With the current rules:

Voluntary Downgrade from Premium to Economy
- Green Select Voucher given and you will still qualify for Premium Economy mileage and tier points.
- Refund in fare difference between fare booked and lowest available economy fare at time of booking. Refund made back to person/party that made the booking.

Green Select voucher good for:
- £250 Voucher than can be used against a published Virgin Atlantic fare or £250 towards the cost of a Virgin Holidays holiday Ð must be booked direct with Virgin Hoidays and not via an agent
Or
- 30,000 flying club miles

Basically don't worry about the risk of being downgraded, it is rare, and volunteers will be asked for first.

Thanks,
Richard

[RichardMannion]

Just seen Michael's post about EU rules, which remidns me, if you do go down that route, you will get 75% of the fare back:

Involuntary Downgrade from Premium to Economy
- 75% of fare paid will be refunded back to person/party that made the booking
- You will earn Economy mileage and tier points for that sector (at Y class rates)

Hence why it is under discussion. Perosnlly given the choice, I would rather have the voluntary compensation than the invol compensation.

Thanks,
Richard

Hi Richard

The compensation you are referring to is this over and above the refund of PE supplement paid, if so should I have been entitle to more and if this is the case should I have received more?

I think if you have another look at Richard's post he is saying you get a refund in fare difference between fare booked and lowest available economy fare at time of booking PLUS the green select voucher. Alternatively if it is a forced downgrade you can go for the EU compensation if you prefer (although I would go for the VS compensation as it seems more generous).

Thanks for all your help everyone. I feel much more relaxed about it.

Originally posted by sailor99
Alternatively if it is a forced downgrade you can go for the EU compensation if you prefer (although I would go for the VS compensation as it seems more generous).

As I understand it, the two aren't mutually exclusive (and actually aren't different as it stands at the moment). You can't claim any money from the EU or your regional complaints body - it's the airline that has to pay, the EU have simply laid down legislation that says the airline must provide certain benefits. If the airline chooses to offer better than that, then that's fine - but they should never offer less than that.

So, according to Richard's post, Invol downgrade from PE to EC:

"- 75% of fare paid will be refunded back to person/party that made the booking
- You will earn Economy mileage and tier points for that sector (at Y class rates)"

This meets the minimum criteria for the EU legislation:
75% of the fare paid, no matter what the cabin difference is
(VS flights are always ex-EU and always over 3500km).

BTW, just for folks' reference, this has been a topic discussed behind the scenes very recently (can you tell? ) and Richard & I have been discussing where the VS policies don't match up with what's required by the EU legislation. We're aiming on covering this in some detail in the next edition of the V-Book.

As an example, one of these areas is the refund method. As per Richard's post above, VS will send the refund to the person that paid for the ticket. However, the EU legislation makes continued reference to compensation/refunds having to be made as per Article 7(3): "shall be paid in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, with the signed agreement of the passenger, in travel vouchers and/or other services."

Cheers

Michael

mcuth RR:79 V-Flyer Director United Kingdom 5242 Posts
Posted - 14/03/2006 : 16:45:59

BTW, just for folks' reference, this has been a topic discussed behind the scenes very recently (can you tell? ) and Richard & I have been discussing where the VS policies don't match up with what's required by the EU legislation. We're aiming on covering this in some detail in the next edition of the V-Book.

One of the other conditions that doesn't seem fair is if you have a G class ticket and you get bumped to another airline - according to the T&Cs you will only be placed in coach and no refund of miles either. Given that UC rewards are twice the redemption of economy that seems completely unfair[:(!]I'm sure it doesn't happen that often but if there is a priority for bumping (or not being bumped) I'm not sure where the reward ticket holder would feature.

Regards

Pat

Originally posted by patjohnson
One of the other conditions that doesn't seem fair is if you have a G class ticket and you get bumped to another airline - according to the T&Cs you will only be placed in coach and no refund of miles either. Given that UC rewards are twice the redemption of economy that seems completely unfair[:(!]

Interesting Pat, thanks - that sounds out of order too. Note that the EU legislation specifically points out that it applies to reward bookings too, so any re-routing should be under "comparable transport conditions" as per Article 8....

Cheers

Michael

Originally posted by cshore
I've only been asked if I would "accept" a downgrade once. The conversation went something like this:

Checkin Agent: The Premium Economy cabin is overbooked today Sir so we are having to downgrade some passengers. Would you be prepared to downgrade today?

Me: Not really. See, my ticket has "No downgrades" written on it, so I don't think it's an optio I'm afraid.

CA: Oh, I see sir. Well in that case, I'll have to upgrade you. Would that be OK?

Me: (Sound of teeth sinking in to bite off outstretched hand before it's withdrawn) That would be lovely thankyou.

Chris

Very restrained of you Chris [ii]