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#13532 by thelaceys
22 Jun 2006, 10:40
Below is a copy of the letter that my husband has posted off to customer services.

We paid about £600 each for our economy seats and although in the grand scheme of things (certainly from the point of view of upper class passengers I suppose) this was not an enormous amount, it was as much as we could possibly afford and is a lot to us. DIY check in was pointless due to the cues to check in our bags. The flights were not very pleasant and frankly I'm a bit put off by the demise of standards after 10 years of flying Virgin from Manchester/Orlando, but wonder if any other airline is any better[:(]

Dear Sirs,

My wife and I are Flying Club members, Frequent Virgin Club members, hold Virgin credit cards, have a Virgin car loan and even have Virgin e-mail addresses, and hold a great respect for Sir Richard Branson and all his endeavours, so as you can see we are committed ‘Virgin fans’.

Together with our 11 year old daughter, we have been flying the Manchester to Orlando route with Virgin Atlantic for a number of years, and have always been delighted with the excellent Virgin levels of service cleanliness, attitude and helpfulness from all staff from the booking office right through to the airline crew, and as a result have recommended Virgin Atlantic to all our friends and family.

This year we travelled VS075 Manchester to Orlando on the 24th May, 2006, returning VS076 Orlando to Manchester on the 8th June, 2006. Both flights had some unnecessary difficulties which spoiled our whole Virgin experience for which we were extremely disappointed.

On our outbound journey, we found a problem with the in flight entertainment system headphones (as a considerable number of other passengers in our cabin did) which meant that they did not fit into the sockets properly, this resulted in our headphones continually falling out crackling and disconnecting. The cabin staff were of course more than courteous and apologetic and tried their best to help by biting off lengths of black and yellow striped hazard tape with their teeth and binding it around the arm rests in an attempt to secure the headphones for us and all the other passengers, but their attempts were futile as this did not really work very well and had to be unwrapped and re-adjusted numerous times during the flight. Also our daughter had a problem with her screen which kept turning itself off and would only work when we rattled the screen about in its housing in the back of the seat at which point it would re-connect and worked for a while again so there was certainly a connection problem with that.


We have always received a plentiful supply of drinks in the form at least of water and juice (which your ‘healthy flight information’ suggests is very important on long haul flights) and an ice lollipop mid flight, which my daughter always looks forward to receiving. Unfortunately we received one drink which for us consisted of half a plastic cup of water shortly after take off and one drink in the interim following our meal. No further refreshments were available on either flight, and when on the outbound journey the cabin crew found passengers at some points queuing four deep at the galley in an attempt to serve themselves, a staff member was heard to mutter ‘Oh for God’s sake’ under her breath, and was obviously less than happy that passengers were leaving their seats to get drinks. There was no ice lollipop, so my daughter was disappointed.



We noticed that the cabin crew disappeared upstairs through a door at the back of the aircraft for in excess of two hours on both flights, during which no staff could be summoned or seemed to be available in our cabin to assist with any problems or indeed maintain security on the aircraft which concerned us greatly. When the crew did return we saw them busy re-arranging clothing, tidying hair and the male members fastening shirts, tucking their shirts in and putting on ties as they walked down the aircraft to the galley. We have never witnessed this before and could not understand why on a daytime flight, the crew should need to rest, in addition it gave a dreadful impression.

On our return flight the crew, some looking half asleep re-emerged quite late in the flight which resulted in breakfast being served and then tidied away at break neck speed, only just in time for landing.

On boarding VS076 we all three reached into our seat back pockets to read the entertainment magazines to find all the magazines and the safety procedure cards were sticky and covered in what looked like cake, this we also found stuck to the floor in front of our seats in lumps which ended up on our hands and stuck to the soles of our shoes. The pockets were full of crumbs and other peoples rubbish, the aircraft had obviously not been cleaned very well if at all.

With the additional unbelievably long queue the likes of which we have never seen before at check for VS076, which was scheduled to close at 15:15 but went on for some considerable time after that, everyone felt like cattle being herded, overall, both our flights were very disappointing indeed and definitely not of the standard that we have always received and come to expect from Virgin Atlantic.

Please can you give me your assurance that these situations will not re-occur as we are seriously considering changing our travel arrangements in the future to an alternative airline if standards are going to drop in this way and remain so. This would be a terrible shame and we know that this is not normal for Virgin Atlantic and you can offer a far superior service than we experienced this year.

As I am sure you will appreciate we only take two weeks holiday each year and those are with Virgin Atlantic. Our holiday takes us all year to save up for and is very important to us. The flights are as much a part of our holiday as the destination itself and we look forward very much to those flights.

We look forward to hearing from you with your comments concerning our specific and individual flight problems and hope for a favourable re-action to our difficulties from Virgin Atlantic, which we hope will remain our favourite airline.
#123926 by Littlejohn
22 Jun 2006, 10:57
A well worded letter I think. What a shame your flight appears to have suffered from poor pre-flight maintenance leading to the headphone problems, and more disgustingly cake being stuck everywhere. Both problems not at all acceptable of course.

The crew, although trying their best with the sticky tape, do not seem to have been up to the normal standard in other respects. Can you think of any reason why they seemed so uncommitted? This seems very much at odds with my experience, and is therefore all the more concerning. Perhaps they too felt let down by the poor preparation of the plane, or were some upset passengers particularly aggressive?

All in all not a great situation for you to have had to suffer. I would be interested in how VS respond. Remember it may not be appropriate to reproduce their reply verbatim, at least before they have had a chance to make a response to further point you raise relating to their reply.
#123927 by preiffer
22 Jun 2006, 10:59
Thanks for sharing this with us, but just to add to Jeremy's point that we do not encourage the posting of customer service complaints/letters until VS have had the opportunity to respond.
#123928 by Lipstick
22 Jun 2006, 11:14
It's a well constructed letter, but do you really not understand why crew need to rest EVEN on a day flight?

I don't care what line of work you're in, when you're on duty for that amount of time, a break/rest period is ALWAYS needed, whether it's 'daytime' or not!!!
#123930 by RichardMannion
22 Jun 2006, 11:40
Originally posted by Lipstick
It's a well constructed letter, but do you really not understand why crew need to rest EVEN on a day flight?

I don't care what line of work you're in, when you're on duty for that amount of time, a break/rest period is ALWAYS needed, whether it's 'daytime' or not!!!



Yes but that is the whole point of them having shifts - there should be staff avaialble at all times. Its like any business, you don't have all your staff out on break at the same time - it should be co-ordinated by the individuals or management. Could you imagine if all the staff on the same check-in shift took their break at the same time?

Thanks,
Richard
#123932 by mdvipond
22 Jun 2006, 11:42
Good letter and, to be fair, there's nothing in there that you wouldn't have included in a trip report, is there?

There's nothing more disappointing than being let down by a product or service you've come to love. Be interesting to see how VS respond...
#123934 by clayts
22 Jun 2006, 11:43
I would be interested to hear Virgins respose. I too had a terrible flight a while ago (from Vegas) with the FSM being particularly unhelpful in relation to a set of passengers who were a complete nightmare to sit next to (even near). The response I got from Virgin (after the flight) was one of "Thanks for your comments, we cant do anything about passenger behaviour" - I wasnt impressed as the only people on the flight that chose to ignore the behaviour was the Virgin staff and even after the event they still chose to ignore it. I still fly with Virgin but this didnt impress me and I hope its a one off... but if it isnt at least i know now that nothing will be done.
#123936 by Monkey
22 Jun 2006, 12:06
Re Paragraph 6 Crew rest is integralto your safety there is a picture of the crew rest area in the pictures section on here.
#123938 by lilyjosh0
22 Jun 2006, 12:15
Sorry you had such poor flights - must have been very disappointing. Your letter is well written and it will be interesting to see what sort of response you get.
#123942 by declansmith
22 Jun 2006, 12:39
I am confident in saying that not all of the crew would have been on rest together as there simply is not enough room for all the crew to rest at the same time and to comply to with safety regulations a certain number of crew must remain on duty!
#123945 by Jon B
22 Jun 2006, 13:20
Originally posted by mdvipond
Good letter and, to be fair, there's nothing in there that you wouldn't have included in a trip report, is there?

There's nothing more disappointing than being let down by a product or service you've come to love. Be interesting to see how VS respond...


Agree fully with the two statements above......

Really sorry that your recent flight was not up to normal standards. It's the same for us when we fly, my daughters really look forward to the flight and see it as part of the whole experience - one day the novelty of being stuck in a long tube for 10 hours will wear off I'm sure [:w]
but even when that happens service should be as promised and advertised.

Lets hope VS react and issue a personal reply.

There have been a number of topics posted about if and when VS will overhaul the Nova / Odyssey systems in favour of V:Port. Due to the cost this will in all likelihood never happen..... But and this is a big but, If you advertise the IFE as Virgin do then it should work in all cases full stop. If it doesn't, then fair recompense should be made for not delivering the service - over and above a token gesture of free miles (that's an easy cop out).

Come on Virgin, there are a lot of us who choose to fly VS (and pay more for doing so) because we like the service..... It only takes a couple of disappointments to lose that good will

Jon B
#123973 by easygoingeezer
22 Jun 2006, 18:28
That is a well constructed letter and also not offensive or hot headed so I don't mind reading it before we see a reply.

i would go so far as to say that route has definately gone downhill where service and attention to detail is concerned from my own experience.

I hope someone takes your comments on board and you are persuaded to stay loyal to Virgin, its a brand we love to love and a right smack in the mouth when we feel our loyalty might be misplaced or worse not appreciated.
#123988 by slinky09
22 Jun 2006, 20:44
There have been a number of topics posted about if and when VS will overhaul the Nova / Odyssey systems in favour of V:Port. Due to the cost this will in all likelihood never happen..... But and this is a big but, If you advertise the IFE as Virgin do then it should work in all cases full stop. If it doesn't, then fair recompense should be made for not delivering the service - over and above a token gesture of free miles (that's an easy cop out).


On this subject, I note that BA when saying they are updating their IFE to VOD will do it to all types of long haul planes ... I would be delighted to see Virgin do the same. Clearly, advertising VOD, or UC or anything else for that matter, then substituting it for a lesser product is always going to lead to customer woe.
#124001 by Denzil
22 Jun 2006, 22:18
I think you'll find that contractualy they don't have to provide IFE, the only airline that i know of that will provide decent compensation is Emirates. Indeed the aircraft could (and i know of one occasion when it did) fly with no IFE AND no electrical seat operation.

As for the problems you mention, it would sound like the incorrect headsets had been supplied.
#124024 by pjh
23 Jun 2006, 00:14
Originally posted by Denzil
I think you'll find that contractualy they don't have to provide IFE


I believe that to be correct. Certainly if you book with VH the brochure includes a statement along the lines of "we can substitute a DC3 and as long as we get you there that's our bit done". But then again they have to address both the spirit and letter of their offering.

Over the years I've seen different reactions to no IFE. Whole plane out, tough luck. A smallish number, airmiles / duty free voucher for those going without. A very small number, they'll try and find a portable DVD player.

I thought the original post in the main well thought out and expressed. I was particularly struck by the paragraph

"As I am sure you will appreciate we only take two weeks holiday each year and those are with Virgin Atlantic. Our holiday takes us all year to save up for and is very important to us. The flights are as much a part of our holiday as the destination itself and we look forward very much to those flights."

That is true for many people. I know we in the cheap seats are not paying the premium for service that PE/ UC are, but drawing on my own experience suggests that we tend to fix holiday budgets, and as the offspring fly the coop, the budgets can then stretch to premium services. We may then decide to take our business elswehere. OK, there won't be a mass stampede but as M&S found a steady deterioration in the brand can be near catastrophic.

Paul
#124030 by milehigh
23 Jun 2006, 00:42
Well I thought You make like a comment from a Crew member on this... Off the record as always but this kind of situation makes me embarrased to what you experienced!

Im not even going to try and justify anything which happened and it is this sort of thing which I hope the new Training days crew are getting this year may help to stop.

It seems that there was a manufacturing problem with the headsets as opposed to the actuall aircraft ? From expeience you may get the odd problem but not on the scale mentioned here.

Generally speaking there are set guidelines to which routes need crew rest for legal operation of the flight set by the CAA... decided by length, report times, time zones, acclimatisation to local time, passengerto crew ratios.etc.... there must be a minimum of 9 on duty on a full 747. 8 on a 346 and 7 on a 343.

but If I saw my crew appearing tucking their shirts in etc... I would be very cross indeed. (though me being 6"2 I cant stand up in the rest on a 747 so would usually have to dive into one of the toilets to do the same but not through the cabin)

Once again Sorry to hear your experiences... And this is very rare indeed to have all these factors all in one go!
#124058 by Edna Cloud
23 Jun 2006, 09:12
It's a well constructed letter, but do you really not understand why crew need to rest EVEN on a day flight?

I don't care what line of work you're in, when you're on duty for that amount of time, a break/rest period is ALWAYS needed, whether it's 'daytime' or not!!!


Without wishing to incite a violent reaction, I don't think the OP was concerned that crew were taking time to eat a meal, but that they had disappeared to crew rest for a couple of hours, leaving the cabin without visible crew (although we know that the minimum number must have been on duty).

Crew rest is essential on long and / or late night sectors, but on an east coast trip, there will only be two pilots and they will not be taking crew rest during the flight, so it might be nice, but can't be vital for the cabin crew to do so.

Hope customer services respond positively.

EC
#124062 by pjh
23 Jun 2006, 09:45
Actually slightly off topic but prompted by one of the comments in the original post...

On longer flights do the aircraft have two sets of cabin crew ? I'm sure that I've seen completely different individuals when landing than when taking off. If this has been discussed before, I'd be interested into a pointer to the message thread.

Thx

Paul
#124067 by Tinkerbelle
23 Jun 2006, 11:19
Originally posted by pjh
Actually slightly off topic but prompted by one of the comments in the original post...

On longer flights do the aircraft have two sets of cabin crew ? I'm sure that I've seen completely different individuals when landing than when taking off. If this has been discussed before, I'd be interested into a pointer to the message thread.


Nope there is only one set of crew on every Virgin flight
#124068 by wood07
23 Jun 2006, 11:27
I can fully sympathise with the laceys. On our last few trips on this route we have had problems with IFE, broken seats and check-in difficulties. Unfortunately we didn't write to bring this to VAA's attention, but let's hope they take on board your comments and those expressed on v-flyer.
#124118 by Treelo
23 Jun 2006, 15:39
Pity about the bad trip, laceys.:)

However, surely work could be done on this aircraft's IFE during her downtime or service?

Incidentally, I noticed the difference in the amount of water/juice runs during a recent USA trip. Outbound (PE) there was a plethora of runs - inbound (Y) there were 2 runs only (and no pre-dinner drinks run either)[n]
#124133 by milehigh
23 Jun 2006, 17:01
Originally posted by Treelo
Pity about the bad trip, laceys.:)

Incidentally, I noticed the difference in the amount of water/juice runs during a recent USA trip. Outbound (PE) there was a plethora of runs - inbound (Y) there were 2 runs only (and no pre-dinner drinks run either)[n]


Im sure that this is the case... however if anything from my experience more OJ and water services are offered on night flights (crew get bored especially on a boeing where there are no seats for crew ) It can be what we find...comment on a flight from a customer in Y " why dont you pass with drinks on night flights?" on this occaision there had been 4 services within 3 hours but the customer had been asleep...crew dont make too much noise as not to wake those who wish to sleep.

On the point made earlier to flight crew requireing rest... on a 2 man crew there are set guidelines set by the CAA where they can take "in seat rest recovery" where they take it in turns IN THE SEAT to nap...and the operating member/and designated cabin crew have
proceedures to follow.

you are all correcetsaying that this is not required but on many aircraft the crew may have been up two hours before eg.vs3 wake up at 5am leave at 5:30, check in at 7:30 arrive at aircraft and board....depart at 9:30 (first time sitting down on a seat since checkin)

complete service then is it fair to expect the crew just to stand around for the next 6 hours without a chance to sit down? no other job would expect this. so from waking up to disembarking we are talking 12 hours without a break on a short east coast day flight.

All Airlines offer this to crew... but I would agree that situation the laceys experienced was not ideal
#124138 by V-Ben
23 Jun 2006, 17:22
Originally posted by milehigh
" why dont you pass with drinks on night flights?" on this occaision there had been 4 services within 3 hours but the customer had been asleep...crew dont make too much noise as not to wake those who wish to sleep.


I experienced this on Sunday night back from MCO in Ycl.
I was escorting 9 pax on the flight and at Gatwick I commented that I hadn't seen any crew doing Water/Juice runs. It was pointed out that I'd missed the numerous runs as I was snoozing/snoring loudly!
#124143 by thelaceys
23 Jun 2006, 17:46
Thanks to everyone for all your support and reactions to my posting, much appreciated. I will let you know how it all pans out (not verbatim don't worry!).

In reply to the snoozing thing. I never go to sleep on my flights, I have this thing about DVT so as soon as I decide that I am sleepy I'm out of my seat and down the back for a spot of stretch and bend and a natter with who ever else is up there so I'm quite sure I didn't miss any drinks runs, they simply didn't materialise.[|)]:D

End of moan, just looked out of the window, it's a lovely day and realistically just because Virgin cannot deliver doesn't mean the world will stop turning, I think I'll just go and sit in the sun. [8D]

the laceys
#124145 by virgin is the best
23 Jun 2006, 18:06
There can only ever be 8 crew on break on a 747 at any one time as there are only 8 bunks in the crew rest area so that does leave the remaining 10 crew on duty.

As for not needing rest on a day flight its true we dont have to have it but think of it like this. Say you go to work for 8 hours sit behind a dest or do whatever you do. You are entitled to at least a 1 hour break if not more. We go to work we check in 2 hours before a flight we have a flight time on an Orlando of say 9 hours add 30 - 40 mins on that after landing then you have an 11.40 shift. So having an hour or 2 break does not sound too bad now I hope.

However saying that the cabin service should not suffer in anyway whilst the crew are on break. That falls down to the On Board Mangers to deal with that.
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