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#430368 by VS045
01 Jan 2008, 21:04
Too right, egg[y]

I'm not surprised VS/SRB is playing hardball with the strikers. The attitude shown by the crew on this forum is the kind VS wants rather than the short-sighted, militant, disloyal one demonstrated by hard-core WDMMers.

45.
#430393 by dramzan
02 Jan 2008, 07:39
Originally posted by miopyk
Going back to the topic in hand, is there any evidence that VS are suffering a drop in bookings yet?

Being a little perverse, these current issues along with the wider economic difficulties being highlighted in the news today could mean some potential bargains from VS are in the offing.

Miopyk[8D]



Hello all, I'm taking my first trip on VS and to London on the 10th out of EWR, the VS018. Based on the seating chart there is still the same number of seats from at least 2 weeks ago. Also VS's schedules state that passengers affected by the cancellation of VS026 are 'reprotected' on the 18. Looks like not many people have taken them up on the offer, or moved to later flights in the day.
#430398 by southernbelle
02 Jan 2008, 11:15
Egg and VS45 I hear what you are saying, but as someone who voted no to a strike I felt like I had been punched in the stomach when I received the letter. I have spent a lot of time reading all the posts to get a balanced point of view when casting any votes and agreed with the majority of members on here, to vote no to strike but go into the next negotiations much stronger. Subsequently I have lost the chance of a half decent pay rise so am guessing I am back to 2% and then get Richard basically telling me if I don't like it leave. I think Richard's letter will have done more harm than good.
#430399 by iforres1
02 Jan 2008, 11:27
Originally posted by southernbelle
Egg and VS45 I hear what you are saying, but as someone who voted no to a strike I felt like I had been punched in the stomach when I received the letter. I have spent a lot of time reading all the posts to get a balanced point of view when casting any votes and agreed with the majority of members on here, to vote no to strike but go into the next negotiations much stronger. Subsequently I have lost the chance of a half decent pay rise so am guessing I am back to 2% and then get Richard basically telling me if I don't like it leave. I think Richard's letter will have done more harm than good.


Southernbelle,

I feel really sorry for the true genuine staff who wish to proceed as you would want,i.e further negotiations.
If I had staff like you my life would be a lot easier and I for one would give you a job tomorrow.

I wish you all the the best in your decisions[:X]

Iain
#430400 by Pete
02 Jan 2008, 11:42
Originally posted by southernbelle
Egg and VS45 I hear what you are saying, but as someone who voted no to a strike I felt like I had been punched in the stomach when I received the letter. I have spent a lot of time reading all the posts to get a balanced point of view when casting any votes and agreed with the majority of members on here, to vote no to strike but go into the next negotiations much stronger. Subsequently I have lost the chance of a half decent pay rise so am guessing I am back to 2% and then get Richard basically telling me if I don't like it leave. I think Richard's letter will have done more harm than good.


Southernbelle - You probably already know you're loved by the V-Flyers who have encountered your legendary service onboard, so you should consider yourself one of the 'good guys' at VS.

Reading between the lines of Richard's statement, I think I am beginning to really understand what he meant. As you know, BA crew are on a way-above-industry-standard average salary, the last CAA figures in 2006 putting them at an average of £27.9K compared to pretty much every one else at an average of around £15K-£16K. Because there has been so much comparison by crew and the union to BA, I think what SRB means is that shooting for those kind of salaries is simply unaffordable for Virgin.

Using the CAA figures, it's pretty easy to see why. 2006 CAA figures say VS crew get an average £13.3K. As there are about 4500 crew at VS, in order to match the BA salaries, VS would have to find an additional 4500 x £14.6K per year - that's nearly £66m. Given their profit this year was barely £4m (mostly due to the Virgin Nigeria 'investment'), you can easily see why £66m is unaffordable.

The interesting comparison in the CAA figures (and I acknowledge the poster on PPRuNe for picking up on this) is that the only other full-service scheduled operator out of main UK airports, bmi, pay even less than Virgin, with an average £12.9K. BA, as I understand it, have their industry-busting salaries for historical reasons and previous disputes. Most acknowledge that they are the exception rather than the rule, and it would be commercial suicide for any other airline to attempt to match those kind of rates because only BA has the huge economies of scale that could afford them. bmi, on the other hand, are of a more comparable size to Virgin, and their salaries appear to be more in line.

The majority of the rest of the airlines listed are the charters, who sit in the £15K-£16K range, with a blip from EasyJet at £19.3K. I suspect the right thing to do for Virgin would be to move their average to the middle of the £15-£16K pack, but that will still cost them an additional £9m per year - and with competition from Open Skies looming, I can kind of see why they are resistant to large increases in costs. All things being equal in 2008, an additional £9m pay demand would put them about £5m in the red.
#430401 by easygoingeezer
02 Jan 2008, 11:44
Originally posted by southernbelle
Egg and VS45 I hear what you are saying, but as someone who voted no to a strike I felt like I had been punched in the stomach when I received the letter. I have spent a lot of time reading all the posts to get a balanced point of view when casting any votes and agreed with the majority of members on here, to vote no to strike but go into the next negotiations much stronger. Subsequently I have lost the chance of a half decent pay rise so am guessing I am back to 2% and then get Richard basically telling me if I don't like it leave. I think Richard's letter will have done more harm than good.


But you voted no to strike and yes to accept the last offer, so by definition his comments were not aimed at you, it was aimed at people demanding a strike and to go for 10% plus this plus that which a small sometimes nasty little core of people were cajoling and sometimes bullying others in to a strike vote. It was aimed quite politely I thought at the ones who wanted to strike for a ridiculous unsustainable pay increase and Virgin Atlantic and ALL its other workers in the air and on the ground be damned.

It was aimed at the people that were prepared to slate Sir R, slate certain passengers and routes and slate people who wanted to explain why they wanted not to strike.

Personally I think its a sad shame that those people that voted to accept the 4.8% at this time are not able to be paid it, the final offer was removed by management BUT the vote to strikers were informed about this beforehand and are equally responsible for wiping all offers off the board.

You need to look at the letter from a different angle, your NOT the type of person that one comment was aimed at, if anything if these people did actually move on or at least some of them it would be much more likely your own dedication could be rewarded as it should be.
#430412 by VS075
02 Jan 2008, 12:40
Originally posted by seats for landing
VS075 I'm totally confused. You agree that 'moaners' should leave, but then say those who voted not to strike, and disagree with it, should leave. I voted to accept the pay deal, voted no to strike, so you think I should leave? There'd be no-one left at Virgin if all moaners and those who don't want to strike, left.

I'd like to see all those who voted to strike, but have no intention of striking 'cos I can't afford to lose money' leave, as they've caused so many problems. Did they think they'd get paid to be on strike or something?! Basically they've screwed up any chance of a pay deal.


You miss my point seats for landing.

What I was saying is that the moaners, along with those who moan about how their colleagues who voted to strike (one of which has gone and said this on here) should be sacked. You accepted the last deal and voted no strike and you haven't gone and publicly wished for those who voted to strike to be sacked so no I don't think you should be sacked.

Believe we've made our opinions clear. [:)]

Like I said VS are bracing themselves for a strike and the last thing they want is internal fighting going on between cabin crew in two different camps; those who are striking and those who aren't, because otherwise this is going to do nobody any favours. May I suggest that those who wish for other people to be sacked for striking, especially if you're cabin crew, to keep this to yourselves in the future?
#430448 by slinky09
02 Jan 2008, 14:50
Originally posted by Pete
BA, as I understand it, have their industry-busting salaries for historical reasons and previous disputes.


Oh dear, is that an acknowledgement that disputes lead to better pay and conditions [:w] [:w].

Originally posted by VS075
What I was saying is that the moaners, along with those who moan about how their colleagues who voted to strike (one of which has gone and said this on here) should be sacked.


Crikey, how far are we going ... has anyone ever NOT moaned about their work at least once [:0]. The job seekers allowance queues will be huge!

Originally posted by easygoinggeezer
You need to look at the letter from a different angle, your NOT the type of person that one comment was aimed at, if anything if these people did actually move on or at least some of them it would be much more likely your own dedication could be rewarded as it should be.


What I think that Southernbelle was eloquently saying, was that even if SRB meant others, she had the same letter addressed to her and received it in a negative light. That must be a sad thing and should be acknowledged.

Oh deary deary me - where is the light at then end of this tunnel?
#430450 by Decker
02 Jan 2008, 15:00
It's an oncoming train...
#430452 by porsche911
02 Jan 2008, 15:16
Ok am I in the s*** or what ? I fly out the 12th to HK and am due to return the 17th. How does that leave me or is it only certain flight routes as per their website? Sorry but just a little worried ,
#430453 by Neil
02 Jan 2008, 15:21
Originally posted by porsche911
Ok am I in the s*** or what ? I fly out the 12th to HK and am due to return the 17th. How does that leave me or is it only certain flight routes as per their website? Sorry but just panicking a little.


Virgin have announced on their website which flights are cancelled and HKG is not one of them - if their are any more announcements then the VS website will have all the info and details.[ii]
#430458 by VS045
02 Jan 2008, 16:34
Having looked around on the net, I'm not sure CC will actually be able to picket at LHR without the permission of BAA as it is private property...

45.
#430463 by declansmith
02 Jan 2008, 17:34
Correct, those crew wishing to strike can only form picket lines at the locations below.

Heathrow

At the main Western Entrance Gyratory System (WEGS) just off of the Bath Road.
Nene Road, adjacent to the Police Station.
Harlington Corner.
South East Access, on the South Side of the Roundabout, adjacent to Hatton Cross Tube Station.
At the exits from the A30 on the approach to Terminal 4.
Off the A30 on the approach to Beacon Roundabout.
South West access on the exit from the A3044 adjacent to the Roundabout

Gatwick

There is 1 approved location at Gatwick. This is located off the M23 turnoff to Gatwick Ð on the grass verge left hand side underneath the welcome arch to the south terminal.

Manchester

The pavement/grassed area of Viscount Drive at the east end of building 303 on the Cargo Centre between Argosy Drive and York Drive.

The concrete barriers outside Terminal 3 at the Olympic House end of the terminal.
#430464 by Vegas Tone
02 Jan 2008, 17:42
Originally posted by Neil
Originally posted by porsche911
Ok am I in the s*** or what ? I fly out the 12th to HK and am due to return the 17th. How does that leave me or is it only certain flight routes as per their website? Sorry but just panicking a little.


Virgin have announced on their website which flights are cancelled and HKG is not one of them - if their are any more announcements then the VS website will have all the info and details.[ii]


I'm not sure it's as straightforward as that Neil.

I'm booked on a flight that's scheduled to depart a few hours after one of the strikes is due to stop. As it falls outside the period of industrial action, there should theoretically be no issue, right?

However, what about knock on effect, crew or a/c being out of position etc etc? I'm fully expecting some sort of disruption, though I have the utmost faith in the staff that elect to work through the strike.

What I'd really like is some insight from within the firm as to how the action will really affect pax. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is what porsche911 was also looking for.

With respect, we've all seen the VS website. It tells the pax very little in that regard, and I really wouldn't expect it to.
#430465 by Darren Wheeler
02 Jan 2008, 17:49
It's recommended that there be no more that 6 official pickets, who must be clearly identified. Also, the police can legal enforce no more than 20.
#430468 by declansmith
02 Jan 2008, 18:05
The strike only includes those crew who are in the UK which means all the flights will return to the UK, so crew and aircraft wont be out of position.
#430469 by Vegas Tone
02 Jan 2008, 18:08
Originally posted by declansmith
The strike only includes those crew who are in the UK which means all the flights will return to the UK, so crew and aircraft wont be out of position.


Thanks Declan, exactly the kind of reassurance I was looking for!![y]
#430471 by VS075
02 Jan 2008, 18:58
Originally posted by Neil
Virgin have announced on their website which flights are cancelled and HKG is not one of them - if their are any more announcements then the VS website will have all the info and details.[ii]


I wouldn't be so sure Neil on counting on the VS website for all the latest news.

The flights listed on the VS website are those that they know for certain they won't be able to fly, and that's fragile as it is. I am sure that on the strike dates further flights will end up being cancelled and passengers will only end up finding out on the day at the airport thus rendering the announcements on the website useless! [:(!]
#430473 by Pete
02 Jan 2008, 19:27
Originally posted by VS075

I wouldn't be so sure Neil on counting on the VS website for all the latest news.

The flights listed on the VS website are those that they know for certain they won't be able to fly, and that's fragile as it is. I am sure that on the strike dates further flights will end up being cancelled and passengers will only end up finding out on the day at the airport thus rendering the announcements on the website useless! [:(!]


VS075, unless you have a direct line to the management, you know that that is speculation and possibly even scare-mongering. As it happens, I have been in contact with one of the board of directors today, and VS are still pretty positive that the information on their site is how things will pan out. There may be unforeseen circumstances, but by their very nature, nobody is able to predict those.
#430478 by VS075
02 Jan 2008, 19:44
Originally posted by Pete
VS075, unless you have a direct line to the management, you know that that is speculation and possibly even scare-mongering. As it happens, I have been in contact with one of the board of directors today, and VS are still pretty positive that the information on their site is how things will pan out. There may be unforeseen circumstances, but by their very nature, nobody is able to predict those.




I know it's all speculation, the point I was making was that the website may be where all the latest news is being posted, but try telling that to passengers who are at the airport and find that heir flight is cancelled.

However as you say it's unpredictable what will happen on the day, but I'm personally not 100% sure that VS will be able to deliver the full schedule minus the already cancelled flights.
#430479 by Neil
02 Jan 2008, 19:48
I'm not so sure you're predictions are right Alex. Of course it is very difficult to predict exactly what will happen on the strike dates, but to basically say VS are only nominating a few flights whilst full well knowing they will cancel more on the day just doesn't seem founded. Delays and cancellations happen when no strikes are happening so of course there is potential and possibility of problems on the days but VS seem, as Pete has said, confident the plan they have put forward will work, and I for one hope its a roaring success.

Vegas Tone, the information you, and you presume Keith are asking for is impossible to get. Virgin have made their announcement very publicly about the flights that will be affected. They aren't going to announce a very unaffected schedule then undermine that by saying that in the preceding days they will be a whole host of other problems too, we just have to hope they can keep to their targets. With such limited announced cancellations then the likelihood of a/c being out of position should be limited as Declan has said.

Neil
#430480 by Vegas Tone
02 Jan 2008, 20:05
Thanks for your response Neil, I do take your point.

My concern is that, as far as the customer can see, there are two distinct 'predictions' of how things will pan out.

On one side we're hearing 'scare-mongering' talk of all kinds of disruption, but from the other there's an apparent 'head-in-the-sand' mentality that everything will be fine (that wasn't a personal 'dig' at anyone by the way, just a generalisation of the two 'sides')

I guess I'm looking for a middle ground, real world view of the situation which, as you rightly say Neil, is impossible to nail down.
#430481 by Pete
02 Jan 2008, 20:16
Originally posted by Vegas Tone
there's an apparent 'head-in-the-sand' mentality that everything will be fine


The reason for the confidence from VS is that they have been planning for this eventuality for months. They not only have the benefit of a reasonably weak support for the strike (roughly 30% of the workforce), but they also have a lot of resource they can call upon from within the company to temporarily cover crew positions. A lot of ground staff once flew, and with a brief refresher course, they are fit to fly again. So I expect the planners have looked at all the possibilities and come up with a schedule they are happy to commit to, and I'm prepared to believe they'll be able to deliver. Not only have the company offered generous incentives to the crew who work on strike days, I also sense a tone of uncertainty in the posts of once pro-strikers on boards like PPRuNe and CabinCrew.com which makes me think the support for strike action won't be particularly strong.
#430482 by Darren Wheeler
02 Jan 2008, 20:28
Pete, I've noticed that too. Some of the posts are a bit like watching a car crash about to happen but there are indications that even those who voted 'Yes' will work. Those that voted 'No' are saying they will work extra routes to help out. [^]

Of course there may be some problems later in the year when those that do work extra reach their 900 hours.

Oh, and nice catch on Leemo [y]
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