VS029 LGW-BGI 6 Apr 08 (Econ)

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I purchased four Virgin Atlantic Airways flights on VS29 (6.4.2008) from Gatwick to Barbados for a two-night stay before flying on to Dominica. The holiday had been planned for over a year and it was to be the first time my children who are 10 and 12 had visited their family in Dominica.

My wife and I followed the check-in procedures on-line the day before the flight and we arrived at Gatwick with time to spare - and had to queue for about 10 minutes at the check-in. The man on the desk began to process our tickets and luggage. It was during this process that an official from Virgin Atlantic arrived to inform us that the flight had been overbooked, and that he would be looking into alternative travel arrangements for my family. He said that this was because we were the last passengers to arrive.

I requested to speak to a manager, and was taken to meet Ticket Desk Supervisor, ***********. He explained that it was Virgin Atlantics policy to overbook flights, and because we had not checked in on-line we had been the passengers chosen to miss the flight - despite our assurances that we had done so.

We were told that there were no more available flights that day and that he could put us in a hotel for 24 hours, and get us on to the British Airways flight the next day. I said that this was wholly unacceptable since this would mean losing our only complete day in Barbados. When asked about compensation for missing this stage of the holiday and for the expensive hotel that we had paid for independently, Mr ********** informed us that Virgin Atlantic were not liable for this, but Virgin were prepared to offer us 60 Euros per person as compensation.

I said that I would be happy to accept alternative flights on any airline from any UK airport, so long as we got to the Caribbean that day. I asked whether there were tickets on the BA flight leaving from Gatwick at 11.15 am, but was told that the flight was full. I asked if there were Business Class seats available on that BA flight. Mr ********* said, and I quote, if there was any way in the world that we could get you to the Caribbean today, we would, but the fact of the matter is that there are no seats on any flight out of the UK today. He explained that our only option was to get the BA flight the following day. He gave us the opportunity to get a taxi home or go to a hotel at Gatwick, and we reluctantly chose the latter.

It was at this stage that a friend whom my wife had telephoned, phoned us back to say that she was on-line and that BA did in fact have availability on both Premium Economy and Business Class flights to Barbados from Gatwick, with a flight leaving in a couple of hours. I pointed out to Mr *********** that he had promised that if there was any way in the world that we could get you to the Caribbean today, we would. Mr ********** was extremely embarrassed but said that he was not authorised to do this.

As Virgin Atlantic had been untruthful about the BA flight being full, and indeed about us not having checked in on-line, I thought it reasonable to doubt whether the BA flight the next day had available space. My family were extremely upset by the situation, and my two daughters were both distraught and in tears about missing the holiday that they had been looking forward to so much. I couldnt quite believe that Virgin were legally allowed to sell our seats twice over and make us miss a day of our holiday, all for 60 Euros.

I felt I had no option but to purchase the BA flights myself and reclaim the cost from Virgin Atlantic on my return. I purchased the cheapest available tickets with BA, which amounted to three seats in Premium Economy and one in Business Class.

On my return I immediately wrote to Virgin Atlantic, however after much correspondence they are still saying there is nothing they can do re reimbursing my costs. They are even claiming that they offered me 2400 Euros at the time, which they say I refused to accept. Incredibly, Virgin Atlantic is still withholding the money I paid for the four flights.

Having researched the law regarding denied boarding, I have found that Virgin should have had notices displayed regarding passenger rights, and should have asked for volunteers. Neither of these things was done.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has experienced denied boarding by Virgin Atlantic, and whether anyone has any advise on how I can get my money back. It seems incredible that Virgin is allowed to sell its seats twice over, delay a family for 24 hours and only offer 50 compensation per person.

William

The EU Passenger Rights Directive covers these sorts of situations. It's not the most simple piece of legislation written, and airlines often seem to have an interpretation of it that differs from the European Commission's interpretation. However, it is clear that a delay of more than four hours resulted from an involutary denial of boarding entitles you to Û600 per person (which is where the offer of Û2400 I assume is calculated from). It is also clear that you have a choice of not flying with the airline, and receiving a full refund of your flight fare, or of being rerouted.

I don't believe you were entitled to a rerouting in WTP+ or Club World; Article 8 states a re-routing is available in 'comparable transport conditions'. As I don't believe you were entitled to be rerouted by VS in these classes, I don't see the directive as entitling you to recover the costs of the BA flights you paid for, unfortunately.

So in sum, as you chose not to fly, I would think VS should be paying you compensation of Û2400, plus the amount you paid for the tickets. Please don't rely on this as formal legal advice however...!

[Decker]

Deleted duplicate post and redacted staff name as per forum posting policy.

EU/261 states that the compensation of 600 Euros should have been offered at the time. We were offered 60 Euros per person. We were told that we had not checked in on line when we had. We were told that we had been denied boarding because we were late - we arrived 15 minutes before the flight closed. We were promised that if Virgin could get us to our destination by any means that day, they would, but this was a lie too. Virgin are still in receipt of the money we paid for our flight, despite having requested this several months ago. Virgin should have asked for volunteers but failed to do this. By law Virgin should have notices adviseing passengers of their legal rights. Again Virgin failed to do this. Is Virgin ever going to answer any of my questions, rather than deliberatley missing the point?

[Decker]

Firstly let me say that any kind of delay to a long anticipated holiday must be majorly disappointing and I can understand that you would eagerly seek out any way of mitigating that delay.

That having been said, there are a number of factual things going on which need clarification.

You do realise we're not Virgin but are an independent customer driven forum? I'm guessing 60/600 was a misunderstanding of some kind. Presumably if you checked in on line you had printed confirmation so how they could say you didn't check in on line? If you only turned up 15 minutes before the flight closed then you would have missed the calls for volunteers - that late on they would have been going for involuntary denial.

You do realise that ALL airlines overbook flights as standard practice because people don't turn up. Did you tell Virgin you were making your own way or did they have you as a no show for the next day? If you told them then I can't see why they wouldn't give you your fare back. Normally the signs are there at the check in desk but not exactly prominent.

A terrible way to (not) start a holiday and very unfortunate for you. It does show that sometimes the advise to be at the airport two to three hours before your flight is good advise, arriving 1 hr and 15 minutes before on popular flights can have adverse results.

I thought your post was very measured, unlike no doubt your experience on the ground and the reported lack of accurate information from VS ground staff.

While sympathising with your position, I cannot see how you will be entitled to more than the compensation offered and a refund of your flights.

VS is notoriously slow in processing refunds (as others on this forum have experienced) however, so the delay may not be personal to your situation. At the final resort you could go to a small claims court.

The 60/600 Euros was certainly not a misunderstanding, as I my wife said ' but that's only £50', to which he repilied,'that's all you're entitled to'. I made it clear that this wouldn't even cover the cost of the hotel we'd booked. He did however confirm that it was 60 Euros per person.

We opted to pick up boarding passes at check-in (as our printer was not working). At check-in we explained this, and the VS official began the process. Bags were weighed, ticket torn off etc. It was during this process that he was advised that the flight had become full. There was no mention of volunteers when we arrived and he started the process. Very unlikely therefore that volunteers were asked for prior to this point.

That morning it had been snowing heavily, hence many passengers arrived later than anticipated, including ourselves. Could it have been the case that Virgin anticipated some passengers not turning up and sold some more seats?

Also, very confused as to why Virgin would say that all flights, including Business and Premium Economy were full, when this was clearly not the case?

Thanks for the advise re.small claims. I will certainly be pursuing every avenue.

It is such a shame when Virgin gets it wrong as I have always found them to be very fair in such circumstances. Good Luck, and let us know how you get on.

As previously mentioned, most, if not all other airlines over-sell.I wonder if they also over-sell UC - I suspect not![V]

[Decker]

Of course they do! Say 20 people in the cabin are on Js - they BUY these so they can be fully flexible and not turn up if they have other arrangements!

Good news - The Mail on Sunday have agreed to take it up on my behalf. It will be interesting to see if this makes a difference - I know BA capitulated as soon as the Chairman of Ladbrokes went public!

Unfortunately overselling seats is policy most scheduled airlines adapt; those who don't usually require passengers to reconfirm their ticket a few days in advance over the phone instead.

Many different businesses also use this process, especially hotels and restaurants.

If there was no agreement from VS to reimburse your alternate travel arrangements then I doubt that you will receive this, especially as the replacement flights you obtained were not in the class you originally booked. IATA or maybe ATOL should state how much compensation each passenger is entitled too.

Since you were offered a flight on another carrier, hotel accommodation and further cash compensation then you may not have a case. Obviously it was wrong for supervisor to state they would get you there by any means possible, if you have noted the name to Customer Services then this issue should be taken back to them.

I hope this can all be sorted out to your satisfaction as I understand the additional you must have paid for these BA seats would not be pocket change.

I really do not have a problem with denied boarding. I know this happens, and for good reason - it makes business sense. The downside is that it can be very inconvenient for passengers, damaging the reputation of the carrier: hence the protocols re compensation and volunteers.

The problem I do have, and why I feel that I should be compensated, is that Virgin broke the law (which, if prosecuted ,would most likely lead to a fine). I was offered 60 Euros per person, when I should have been offered 600 Euros per person. This was not a misunderstanding. I asked, and recieved clarification on this point, which suggests it was either incompetance on Virgin's part, or worse. Of course had Virgin complied with the law and offered the correct level of compensation I would not have made alternative travel arrangement. I was not unaware of the correct levels of compensation at the time because they were not visible (as the law states they should be).

When I relay my experience at the hands of Virgin Atlantic to others, they are universally shocked, but this does not seems to be the case with those connected with the air travel industry!

[Decker]

Originally posted by dtav
does not seems to be the case with those connected with the air travel industry!

Well anybody who flies a lot knows that this sort of thing happens all the time with all manner of airlines. Normally VS handle it better than most due to the commitment of their staff to the brand. Occasionally people screw up and it seems that sometimes they do so royally. If, for example, the gentleman in question DID tell you 60Û (and I am not saying you're a liar, simply that I was not there) then that's just crass stupidity on his part.

I hope that you are able to get a satisfactory resolution to your issues.

FWIW here's Virgin's take on the matter generally, and the regulations themselves.

Your case would seem to be based around Article 14

1. The operating air carrier shall ensure that at check-in a
clearly legible notice containing the following text is displayed
in a manner clearly visible to passengers: 'If you are denied
boarding or if your flight is cancelled or delayed for at least
two hours, ask at the check-in counter or boarding gate for the
text stating your rights, particularly with regard to compensation
and assistance'.

2. An operating air carrier denying boarding or cancelling a
flight shall provide each passenger affected with a written
notice setting out the rules for compensation and assistance in
line with this Regulation. It shall also provide each passenger
affected by a delay of at least two hours with an equivalent
notice. The contact details of the national designated body
referred to in Article 16 shall also be given to the passenger in
written form.

but the requirements only call for a proportionate punishment for VS if they fail to meet these requirements.

We'll watch with interest

Thank you for the link, which is informative and confirms what I suspect, ie the Ticket Desk Supervisor at Virgin Atlantic that day simply messed up. I have friends who work in other areas of Virgin Group who assure me that my experience is very much against the corporate ethos re. customer relations. All the more surprising that Virgin have abdicated all responsibility for their misconduct.

Virgin Atlantic has now offered to pay the 2400 Euros that they should have offered me at the time, but only as final settlement. I have sent them copies of the unused tickets, but Virgin will not refund these unless I send the originals, as final settlement, and will not even tell me how much this sum will be(they were purchased along with connecting flights, through a travel agent).

I am not prepared to accept this, as to me it is very straight forward: I purchased flights, Virgin took my money but also sold my seats to someone else, told me that all other flights were full when they weren't, lied about how much compensation I was due, and put me in a situsation where I had no alternative but to pursue alternative travel arrangements.

Originally posted by Decker
Of course they do! Say 20 people in the cabin are on Js - they BUY these so they can be fully flexible and not turn up if they have other arrangements!

Decker,
I'm not sure I follow. I am aware that people pay extra to have the flexibility of a J ticket and the option not pitch up, but would the airlines over-sell the UC seat ?

It just seems to me to be a potential hornets nest given that the airline may be duty bound to provide the ticket holder with a short notice UC equivelent ticket with another airline.

Regards,


NOC

Originally posted by nowt ont clock
Decker,
I'm not sure I follow. I am aware that people pay extra to have the flexibility of a J ticket and the option not pitch up, but would the airlines over-sell the UC seat ?

It just seems to me to be a potential hornets nest given that the airline may be duty bound to provide the ticket holder with a short notice UC equivelent ticket with another airline.

Presumably they are trying to protect themselves from the revenue loss associated with a flight with an empty seat.

Paul

[Decker]

Airlines play the odds. They have stats/models coming out of the wazoo on the most likely scenarios and play to them. The house always wins.

As crew I can assure you that we OVERBOOK ALL cabins including Upper Class!!!

When I went to JFK a few weeks ago the config was 45J 38W and 225Y but it was booked to 53J 35W and 200Y so Upper Class was over booked by 8 and guess what we left London with only 42 in Upper Class. so 11 Upper Class pax failed to show up!!

Airlines use lots of data for revenue management to ensure the flights leave as full as possible everytime.

It also says in your terms and conditions on your ticket quite clearly that you must show up nice and early to get a seat.

In your eticket there is clearly a section which is headed;

DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION

and a link;

http://www.virginatlantic.com/en/gb/boo ... riage9.jsp

ARTICLE 6 CHECK IN AND BOARDING
6.1 Check-in Deadlines are different at every airport and we recommend that you inform yourself about these Check-in Deadlines and honour them. Your journey will be smoother if you allow yourself ample time to comply with the Check-in Deadlines. As a minimum, we advise you to present yourself for check-in no less than 120 minutes prior to the scheduled departure time of your flight. See also Article 9.1.4.

I wish you luck with your quest.

Overbooking is not unique to VS

Originally posted by declansmith

When I went to JFK a few weeks ago the config was 45J 38W and 225Y but it was booked to 53J 35W and 200Y so Upper Class was over booked by 8 and guess what we left London with only 42 in Upper Class. so 11 Upper Class pax failed to show up!!

So that's a fair wedge down the drain and an interesting statistic.

Originally posted by declansmith
Overbooking is not unique to VS

I don't think the OP's complaint was about overbooking per se, but rather how they were treated as a consequence.

Touch wood, to date I've had nothing but good experiences from VS when being able to volunteer for being bumped...

Paul

Originally posted by pjh

So that's a fair wedge down the drain and an interesting statistic.

I don't think down the drain, probably what I do - circumstances change and people fly another day or on another flight on the same day. This is why J can cost £5k and W £2k.

Originally posted by slinky09

Originally posted by pjh

So that's a fair wedge down the drain and an interesting statistic.

I don't think down the drain, probably what I do - circumstances change and people fly another day or on another flight on the same day. This is why J can cost £5k and W £2k.

True, but it's still lost to that flight and potentially to the airline completely if you take the refund option on a J.

Paul

I was flying to france and as I was travelling from Gatwick, I thought I would pop along to the virgin terminal and check the signage. Can anyone tell me why we were taken away from the check in desk to tell us why were were denied boarding.
Why is the compensation amounts not displayed....and why when we spoke to the manager last week he entered a cupboard behind the desk we tried to check in at and were handed a leaflet on denied boarding? They were clearly in the cupboard at the time of our holiday?

We took some very interesting photos of pretty non existant information!

[HighFlyer]

Airlines are required to display information regarding denied boarding rules and compensation at check-in counters, and you should see these at VS's check-in. I have seen them before.

You may have been taken away from the check-in desk to be advised of the situation in order to free up that desk for the next passenger, or to discuss that matter more privately. To be honest, none of us can really answer that for you.

I'm unsure from your comments what exactly has happened. You state you were not informed of the amounts due to you but you also say you were given a leaflet? Did the leaflet not detail this information?

Thanks,
Sarah