Why is VS losing loyal customers?

[Darren Wheeler]

quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
[quote]Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
Time for a wise and brave soul to visit to Crawley?


Nope, it's time for a wise and brave soul from Crawley to visit us, we give our money to them, not the other way around.




True. But sometimes it's more effective to walk into the lion cage and smack him on the nose than shout through the bars.

We've just returned from our annual christmas holiday in florida. We've been doing this trip and others for the last 16/18 years with VS. Thats at least one flight a year sometimes two with a family of six exclusively with VS. This time though we flew AA.

In the past we paid a premium to fly VS knowing how good the service was, but after many recent years of poor and rude service we decided to go with a cheaper carrier.

I can tell you now, the AA experience was a vast improvement on VS. We flew economy and the seat and legroom on the 777 was miles better than the VS seat. One in our party also though the seat and space was better than VS premium.

The only part AA didnt come out tops comparing to VS was the IFE, but if you have a good seat that you can actually sleep in, you dodnt need to use the IFE.

We will be using AA for all our future trips to the states. We had a good number of experiences with VS in the early years that unfortunately been replaced by bad experiences. VS were the ones that set a high standard of service but more often than not couldnt seem to maintain it. I guess us early passengers were just spoilt.


NOTE: what was really interesting was that the AA flight was overbooked and they were offering $800 and a guaranteed seat the next day for volunteers, when VS were advertising upgrade availabilty for sale. In the past the VS flights had always been choker block over christmas?

Rather than shoot from the hip (for once) I had to take the dogs for a walk before replying to this, another great thread and good debate.

I don't observe VS losing people in droves (and VS results showing increases in premium traffic this year simply counteract that view) ... but VS has surmountable problems, such as:

- it's size, routes and lack of short haul which add up to an inability to attract major corporate clients. In this situation VS faces losing passengers who's spend is discretionary more than some others and in the current economic climate having a large bedrock of corporates, even though they are cutting back, such as AA and BA do will help them more ...

- it's losing the plot with benefits / good promotions (the BA offer recently was the kind of thing VS should do and used to do) and I know we frequently comment on companion vouchers but a simple thing like making these also work with miles tickets would go a very, very long way

- the competition is getting it's act together - namely BA. OK I still prefer the UCS but NNCW has a lot going for it and BA appears to have upped the ante somewhat

- variabilty - which is the thing we V-Flyer frequent fliers comment on perhaps mostly - I echo all of Richard's comments about crew, there is a notable minority who simply should not be in a premium cabin (or perhaps any cabin) and these and the FSMs who disappear should be demoted, retrained or given some other option. Simple in flight services can be and should be invested in and not cut back

All aside, I still see full cabins and have done on most of my flights this year (more than 35 single long haul flights on VS alone) and when it works it really does. Let me say this, in the last 12 months I have flown on VS UC and PE, Jet in Business, Cathay in Business, BA in CW, AA in First, Emirates in Business and First - VS is still the best in my opinion, but it is losing its edge and the gap is not as wide. I am now looking at trading in some of future flights to get Gold BA Executive Club, which offers something more, while maintaining VS Au and PAMS - now I might not have felt the same two years ago, but it doesn't mean I'm leaving VS!

[Darren Wheeler]

The thing I find most worrying is that at times Pam Ann looks more like a homage than a parody.

Well heres my 2 cents: I have only ever flown virgin in the last 6 years, thats as loyal as I am ever going to be, but my next flight is booked with BA[:I]. I am a Virgin Silver holder with over a million miles on my account. I fly mainly to India in all 3 cabins and occasionally to NY.

The last 2 upper flights I have had have had so many problems I was refunded 35000 miles for the hassle. Its not about the compensation, but about the ability of Virgin to provide a good service in their premium cabins, to give just one example when I sent my starter back untouched the Fa commented she wouldn't have touched it either as it looked like something her dog brought up!

You may ask why BA. Well my dad has just returned from DEL with BA as there was no availability with Virgin on the required dates, and he was in shock. The benefits he said were astonishing the fact you could upgrade the suitcase weight to 32kgs each for only £25 which is not the case on the india sectors with virgin as well as the no weight limit on the hand luggage. The service was amazing and professional which in his own words made the virgin offerings look like easyjet! Rather than just one thing he said the entire setup was more civilized and efficient.

Well i have my 1st BA flight booked in just under 2 weeks and see first hand what the competition offers.....

quote:Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
The thing I find most worrying is that at times Pam Ann looks more like a homage than a parody.


Not true when you talk to the fabulous ladies!

I think it's the case with all airlines that familiarity can often breed contempt and the grass can often look greener on the other side. When you fly another carrier for the first time everything is new, and (unless your trip is a disaster) you haven't seen it screw up yet and you haven't had enough trips to spot the inconsistencies.

BA is by no means without its frustrations, but the main advantages are its route network and the greater choice of flights on competing routes with VS. Thankfully the punctuality and baggage handling problems are now a thing of the past.

If you do a lot of flying, there's a lot to be said to not putting all of your eggs in one basket and spreading your trips across Oneworld and Star Alliance so that you have status on a member carrier of both alliances to maximise options and benefits wherever the world you fly.

quote:Originally posted by nevadakaz
Some excellent points have been made in this thread.

Why should a VS customer have to pay the Amex service charge when using the VS Amex, when BMI and BA both manage to waive this fee?

Where is the discount/incentive for booking online ? Anybody remember the £5 online discount ?

Finally, before I ramble too much. I think VS shot itself in the foot when it tied itself up with MBNA-Amex. Previously many BA flyers had the BA Amex and the VS flyers had the mastercard, when Virign 'forced' us over to the MBNA-Amex people could easily see what a poor deal the VS version was in comparisson to its BA cousin. Couple that in with poor value reward seats, impossible to use (get value from) MBNA-Amex perks and suddenly it was easier to earn miles with BA and use them on fair value rewards/upgrades.


I recently booked BA flights and paid with my BA Amex and was charged £8.00.
The Virgin MBNA card I looked into but it's appalling.

Finally, with just one return Virgin flight under my belt, I can't comment about the ongoing service, but I do know that a great crew is worth far more than any amenity, and with airlines matching prices, VS has to punch above it's weight. They need to be different. They are still tiny compared to the AAs and BAs of the world, they can do it.

Sorry VS, just booked our summer hols to LA. Asked the family who they'd prefer to fly with and it turns out to be AA.

Even the VS kid packs dont appear to swing it these days!

At the end of the day VS seem to be lurching from one big issue to another. We all know that the airline industry is struggling and we all want VS to survive but what really gets my goat is all the cash VS seem to throw into TV marketing. Fair enough, push the new Clubhouse etc but come on do we really need to be told that VS are 25 years old this year???? I wonder how much that little gem has cost them and will it really bring in any new custom?

With all the complaints about the state of aircraft the more cynical of us would wonder whether they have brought Spirit of Sir Freddy back form the dead [}:)].

VS will always get first shot at my business but i am afraid with cash being tight in our household BA et al will be looked at with more and more frequency.

Maybe with Mr Ridgway stating yesterday on BBC Breakfast that VS are very well placed in the market due to currency and fuel hedging it is about time he got to speculating on some cabin and product upgrades and retraining for those CC that fall short of expectations, after all didnt he come from a Customer Service background in VS?

I have flown twice per year for the past 5 years to Orlando with virgin. Just once in the twenty flights has the plane taken off within an hour of the schedule. twice the delay has been over 8 hours.

This October I am flying Ba (economy as no bonus this year).

Reasons? Va has no reward flights on my days so I need to pay.
2 adults and 1 child EDI-LGW-MCO with BA is £1179. On Virgin LGW-MCO £1465! and I still have to add on £240 for EDI-LGW flights.

So going with Ba saves £600 and I have a good chance of getting a reliable flight. Until virgin sorts out its reliability issues I don't think I'll be back, unless I can actually use some of my 300,000 miles that I've got.

There is a debate to be had over who's best between BA and VS but AA??

Cannot check in online
The worse food ever
No Kids meals
$6 for every drink

After 40+ flights with Virgin and only two with AA I might be counting my chickens too soon. But two good flights over christmas with AA beat 10+ bad virgin ones.

Cannot check in online, but we flew thru AA check in compared to the queues we witnessed at the virgin check in.
Food was actually very good and had a really tasty pizza for afternoon snack!
Kids only ate the fruit in the kids meals.
Drinks were fullsize cans and a big cup. Didnt see anyone paying for drinks?

The above was based on economy travel.

quote:Originally posted by sickbag
Drinks were fullsize cans and a big cup. Didnt see anyone paying for drinks?


Isn't AA's policy free soft drinks but USD6 for anything alcoholic ?

Your 40+ VS vs 2 AA experience is enlightening..what were the overriding factors in the family's preference for the latter over the former ? I know, for example, that my son would prefer to travel Y with V-Port than PE with Nova, whereas my choice would be the opposite ?

Paul

quote:Originally posted by pjh
[quote]Originally posted by sickbag
Drinks were fullsize cans and a big cup. Didnt see anyone paying for drinks?


Isn't AA's policy free soft drinks but USD6 for anything alcoholic ?

Your 40+ VS vs 2 AA experience is enlightening..what were the overriding factors in the family's preference for the latter over the former ? I know, for example, that my son would prefer to travel Y with V-Port than PE with Nova, whereas my choice would be the opposite ?

Paul



I guess the overriding factor was comfort in the cabin / size of seat. The 777 just felt newer/cleaner/bigger than anything we have travelled on in virgin.

Plus the fact not once were the cabin staff rude. We have witnessed first hand a number of rude cabin staff on virgin in the last 5 years or so.

It was a tough choice to choose a different carrier after using VS exclusively to fly to the states. I guess you could say we were hooked by the brand. Had the credit card/used virgin holidays on occasions. Although cabin staff made the decision a lot easier. Also the state of the cabins recently.

I remember when we didnt mind paying a premium for the virgin experience. My 3 kids had only ever travelled with Virgin. My eldest, 14 has 30+ flights.

As for the IFE, they tend to watch the odd movie and then fall asleep for the rest of the flight.

Last christmas we flew to LA in Premium because of the longer flight and couldnt bare to do that in VS economy. We are going this summer and are happy with the AA ecomomy seats!

Its a shame, because I still have some miles left to use with VS. But unless we start to experience really bad things with AA I cant see us returning due to the better cabin experience.

It is well-known that the whole MCO experience on VS is dodgy. Friends of mine just around the corner own property in the Orlando area and they were disappointed by BA. So when they went on a VS trip, they called it a day and went back to BA. That is very disappointing... we all know that DisneyWorld etc is a big draw for families with kids, and that this is possibly a reason why those flights end up being so miserable (because the crews can't/won't deal with kids), but VS needs to do something there. The endless delays are also because of the equipment that is based at LGW and is used on LAS flights as well. If the scheduling becomes such that there are constant delays, then either shift your flight slot, or get equipment that can make sure such delays don't occur!

That said, I'm off to Africa again in February. BA would've been cheaper and I entertained the option of flying in Africa with BA (i.e. its franchised operations), but in the end I am saddled with South African Airways (who partner with VS) because their schedule is more flexible. If VS had a regional European network (they kind-of do with BMI), I would like to try them out too to make up my mind, but I am with BA on that one. If I ever choose to fly with BA again, it will have to be damn good to draw me away. BA has been very pleasant regionally, but a past experience on a Y flight between ORD and LHR was enough to put me off.

Call me stupid or silly, but I am brand-loyal. I will stick to a brand until it really disappoints me (and VS hasn't yet), and then I'll find a better one.

S.

quote:Originally posted by VAFFPAX
It is well-known that the whole MCO experience on VS is dodgy. Friends of mine just around the corner own property in the Orlando area and they were disappointed by BA. So when they went on a VS trip, they called it a day and went back to BA.


The old fleet issue out of LGW/ MAN really does need addressing, as in many instances, these could be future pax trying VS out for the first time going away expecting this is the product on all flights.. Therefore when said person comes to book again, what's the pull to use VS...why should they head to LHR to get a global flight with VS?

First impressions count..

quote:The old fleet issue out of LGW/ MAN really does need addressing, as in many instances, these could be future pax trying VS out for the first time going away expecting this is the product on all flights.. Therefore when said person comes to book again, what's the pull to use VS...why should they head to LHR to get a global flight with VS?

First impressions count..


Exactly! we are going to orlando later this year but will fly to miami then drive upto orlando which is anything but handy, but the LGW fleet and service is pitiful eg: no private wing! clubhouse not half as good! planes clearly in need of updating! no V-port! No revivals at LGW! Why would i spend my hard earned on such an inferior service?[V][V]

cheers
alex[:)]

quote:Exactly! we are going to orlando later this year but will fly to miami then drive upto orlando which is anything but handy, but the LGW fleet and service is pityfull eg: no private wing! clubhouse not half as good! planes clearly in need of updating! no V-port! No revivals at LGW! Why would i spend my hard earnt on such an inferior service?

Just to play devils advocate: How many of these are available on AA tho? Does BA provide this service at LGW? - I don't think so.

The LGW / MAN 747s are some of the newest in the world - much newer than the LHR 747s. I agree that Vport is badly needed to bring them in to competition with AVOD now becoming a standard product on most airlines, but I'd argue that on predominantly leisure routes if all the higher perks of premium classes are needed. Does VS make its money out of UC on these routes? - I doubt it - I would expect PE mostly and Y make the money.

Steve

quote:Originally posted by steveb
[quote]Exactly! we are going to orlando later this year but will fly to miami then drive upto orlando which is anything but handy, but the LGW fleet and service is pityfull eg: no private wing! clubhouse not half as good! planes clearly in need of updating! no V-port! No revivals at LGW! Why would i spend my hard earnt on such an inferior service?

Just to play devils advocate: How many of these are available on AA tho? Does BA provide this service at LGW? - I don't think so.

The LGW / MAN 747s are some of the newest in the world - much newer than the LHR 747s. I agree that Vport is badly needed to bring them in to competition with AVOD now becoming a standard product on most airlines, but I'd argue that on predominantly leisure routes if all the higher perks of premium classes are needed. Does VS make its money out of UC on these routes? - I doubt it - I would expect PE mostly and Y make the money.

Steve


Good point Steve about them being mainly leisure based at LGW and so not needing much in the premium cabins department, and so it comes back to the OP because if people think that VS exist only from LHR because of inferior services for very high prices out of LGW then it severly limits where you can travel, limiting earning potential on miles and tier points, so you may as well take it all to BA where atleast your not limited to only a few locations from one airport, and service whilst not as exciting perhaps as virgins but atleast mostly consistant.

cheers

alex

quote:Originally posted by steveb
[quote]
The LGW / MAN 747s are some of the newest in the world - much newer than the LHR 747s. I agree that Vport is badly needed to bring them in to competition with AVOD now becoming a standard product on most airlines, but I'd argue that on predominantly leisure routes if all the higher perks of premium classes are needed. Does VS make its money out of UC on these routes? - I doubt it - I would expect PE mostly and Y make the money.
Steve

If you're traveling with a family, leg-room (space) and an entertainment system are going to win every-time..

Randomly put VS into Youtube tonight and found this classic clip.
Does make me laugh everytime, but didn't notice the youtube title, unless this has changed recently... & no I'm not responsible..

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oGwFZHRi1uY&feature=related
[:D]

Sadly Steve, UC does count for the retirees / moneyed lot who fly on Club on BA to MCO. They know that the MCO airport experience is vile, but if they've had a vile flight, or have to look forward to a vile flight, they really don't want to spend more money to get 'less' than what they got in Club.

That said, the other half of the lot out in Orlando now fly into Tampa (with BA), because Tampa is apparently a better airport experience, even if it's an hour's drive away from Orlando. They look at it from the overall experience from their home to the airport through the airport onto the plane and then all the way here (or vice versa). And the LGW-MCO experience has severely disappointed them. They can't understand why on earth I'd want to fly with VS (although I've carefully avoided flying out of LGW with VS for these same reasons - I'll take my chances with LHR T3).

Anyway... It's all about perception, and in this instance, the perception has cost VS a minimum of 6000 quid per trip, with them making multiple trips a year. I know it doesn't mean much in the greater scheme of things, but it does mean that they could've had a regular revenue stream from more loyal customers.

S.

Just came across this thread for the first time, and having re-located to ANU a few months back, I now fly to LGW once or twice a month, and I'm sorry to say I've jumped shipped too after many years of loyal service to VS.

The service on VS has become increasingly unprofessional, and BA have massively improved in recent times in that department.

For years now I have had to walk out of the airport and across the road and then into a restaurant for a so called lounge, accompanied by a voucher which allows me £10 worth of free food and drink. Yet with BA I get a lounge in the airport, with as much free food and drink as I like, VS have done nothing to change this and have no plans to do so according to my sources at the airport.

Also, BA are just more convenient as they fly out daily compared to VS who only offer 3 times a week, and again I don't here any change on that front. Yet I was always as flexible as I could possibly be to go on a certain day just so I could go on VS, unfortunately those days are over...at least until things change at VS.

There have been many great points in this thread, but to put it in an overly simplistic way, because I can't be bothered re-writing what has already been said...the whole atmosphere in VS right now, is just...wrong.

becasue their 'back office' is seriously lacking in good/adequate customer service skills - and I include the Premier team in that

quote:Originally posted by VAFFPAX

the perception has cost VS a minimum of 6000 quid per trip, with them making multiple trips a year.

Wow. That's a lot of disposable income.

Paul