Would I be right to assume these will replace the Gatwick fleet?
EDIT: Just remembered, this is aviation: assume nothing!
New planes and new routes! Wow......
What does this mean for the current LGW fleet? Will these replace the LGW fleet and the 343's?
Presume all will be V:Port or an even better IFE?
What does this mean for the current LGW fleet? Will these replace the LGW fleet and the 343's?
Presume all will be V:Port or an even better IFE?
quote:Originally posted by David
mmm, wonder if we will ever see 'these' aircraft delivered [:w]
David
These yes, the 380's no, we will probably find out in the near future that VS has canceled the 380's and switched the orders to the 333's.
Now this really does through a lot of things up in the air though, I will need a few minutes to digest this and figure out what it means to the VS route system.
mmm, wonder if we will ever see 'these' aircraft delivered [:w]
David
These yes, the 380's no, we will probably find out in the near future that VS has canceled the 380's and switched the orders to the 333's.
Now this really does through a lot of things up in the air though, I will need a few minutes to digest this and figure out what it means to the VS route system.
Ok, had a little time to digest this move, my thoughts.
In order to get the delivery slots that soon this is something that has been on going for a while, now while I figured the 380 order would be converted into a 350 order (which it may still, there are very few details out yet) it is clear that VS's future is twin engine aircraft.
Now with a typical layout of 295 pax in a 3 class config the 333 can reach any US city, JNB, but not HKG etc without payload restrictions.
So here is what I see happening.
The first 5 333's replace the LHR 744's, these switch to LGW (yay V:Port at LGW!) you get an instant upgrade in the number of UC seats that can be sold and the AZ 744's go away.
LHR becomes an all airbus hub until the 789's start arriving, at which point the 346's start rotating to LGW/MAN/GLA
Now with the 333's and 789's you get two fantastic aircraft that have range, lower fuel burn, but lose capacity, which right now and probably for the next 3-5 years is not a great loss, however with this many aircraft coming on board VS will need slot's at LHR, not such an easy thing unless the 3rd runway get's built and more slots open up.
Just my thoughts.
In order to get the delivery slots that soon this is something that has been on going for a while, now while I figured the 380 order would be converted into a 350 order (which it may still, there are very few details out yet) it is clear that VS's future is twin engine aircraft.
Now with a typical layout of 295 pax in a 3 class config the 333 can reach any US city, JNB, but not HKG etc without payload restrictions.
So here is what I see happening.
The first 5 333's replace the LHR 744's, these switch to LGW (yay V:Port at LGW!) you get an instant upgrade in the number of UC seats that can be sold and the AZ 744's go away.
LHR becomes an all airbus hub until the 789's start arriving, at which point the 346's start rotating to LGW/MAN/GLA
Now with the 333's and 789's you get two fantastic aircraft that have range, lower fuel burn, but lose capacity, which right now and probably for the next 3-5 years is not a great loss, however with this many aircraft coming on board VS will need slot's at LHR, not such an easy thing unless the 3rd runway get's built and more slots open up.
Just my thoughts.
quote:flyerdavid Posted - 22/06/2009 : 11:47:43
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New planes and new routes! Wow......
What does this mean for the current LGW fleet? Will these replace the LGW fleet and the 343's?
Presume all will be V:Port or an even better IFE?
ThisLINKalthough incorrectly states A330 200's, does mention upgraded IFE etc.[y]
edit by Scrooge, : clean up link.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New planes and new routes! Wow......
What does this mean for the current LGW fleet? Will these replace the LGW fleet and the 343's?
Presume all will be V:Port or an even better IFE?
ThisLINKalthough incorrectly states A330 200's, does mention upgraded IFE etc.[y]
edit by Scrooge, : clean up link.
I still don't get the idea of puttling the 346s on the B&S routes. Surely they're better on long haul, high cargo destinations. My thought is to put the 789s/330s on the US routes where frequency rules. Leave B744s out of LGW (of whatever configuration you like), and let the 346s continue to go South and East.
I'm guessing the 330s don't have the legs for any of the Far East destinations BTW.
I'm guessing the 330s don't have the legs for any of the Far East destinations BTW.
Sad that this probably signals the end of the 744s at Virgin, but there are many routes that VS have now, and others may want to fly in the future, where a 744 or 346 are simply too much plane.
Just hope VS configures the cabins sensibly. The current VS Airbus cabin configs are pretty awful - seats which are across the aisle from a toilet door, lack of crossover aisles, and seats which get hit with light from the galley (e.g. row 18/19 in PE on the 346).
I'd guess that by the time the 330s are delivered, the UC seat will have probably gone through another redesign. Right now, I think the UCS on the Airbus is a woeful product - narrow and cramped.
Mike
Just hope VS configures the cabins sensibly. The current VS Airbus cabin configs are pretty awful - seats which are across the aisle from a toilet door, lack of crossover aisles, and seats which get hit with light from the galley (e.g. row 18/19 in PE on the 346).
I'd guess that by the time the 330s are delivered, the UC seat will have probably gone through another redesign. Right now, I think the UCS on the Airbus is a woeful product - narrow and cramped.
Mike
A quote from FlightGlobal indicates a replacement/upgrade of V-Port across the entire fleet - fair use excerpt:
quote:The airline adds that passengers will have access to in-seat USB ports and be able to use personal messaging services on their phones.
'We will be the first UK long-haul airline to roll out this service across its fleet,'
quote:The airline adds that passengers will have access to in-seat USB ports and be able to use personal messaging services on their phones.
'We will be the first UK long-haul airline to roll out this service across its fleet,'
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
These 333's are replacing the 346 order that was deferred....maybe.
Also the 343's, they are gone.
Absolutely my guess too - 343s will be going, remaining 346 orders are converted and it would not surprise me if this is the final nail in the coffin for the 380 as well.
The 787s are 787-9s - don't these have a higher seat number of 300 or so compared to the 270 for the 333?
The BT link says these will be operated on business AND leisure routes as well as NEW routes to Beijing, Cancun and Vancouver!
Glad also to see USB ports coming to the new IFE, about time.
So, I agree Scrooge, leased 747s to leave the fleet, keep the other 747s for high seat routes like MCO and turn LHR into all Airbus with 346s and 333s but some of the 333s going to MAN or other where volume is less. Looks like 6 will be purchased and 4 leased too.
All in all, good news. This is where the money for the birthday offers has been spent then [:w].
These 333's are replacing the 346 order that was deferred....maybe.
Also the 343's, they are gone.
Absolutely my guess too - 343s will be going, remaining 346 orders are converted and it would not surprise me if this is the final nail in the coffin for the 380 as well.
The 787s are 787-9s - don't these have a higher seat number of 300 or so compared to the 270 for the 333?
The BT link says these will be operated on business AND leisure routes as well as NEW routes to Beijing, Cancun and Vancouver!
Glad also to see USB ports coming to the new IFE, about time.
So, I agree Scrooge, leased 747s to leave the fleet, keep the other 747s for high seat routes like MCO and turn LHR into all Airbus with 346s and 333s but some of the 333s going to MAN or other where volume is less. Looks like 6 will be purchased and 4 leased too.
All in all, good news. This is where the money for the birthday offers has been spent then [:w].
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
quote:Originally posted by mike-smashing
Sad that this probably signals the end of the 744s at Virgin,
Mike
In the end yes, but not for a few more years.
quote:Originally posted by McMaddog
I still don't get the idea of putting the 346s on the B&S routes. Surely they're better on long haul, high cargo destinations. My thought is to put the 789s/330s on the US routes where frequency rules. Leave B744s out of LGW (of whatever configuration you like), and let the 346s continue to go South and East.
I'm guessing the 330s don't have the legs for any of the Far East destinations BTW.
The thing is, the 789's will be able to fly just as far as the 346's, but do it for a lot less money. Cargo makes good money when there is enough to fly, however having that amount of capacity flying around empty is a killer, so while cargo will take a hit I am sure that it has been figured that with increased ops the cargo side can be covered.
Now the 346's can haul a large amount of people, so they will work well on the B&S routes if that is where they end up.
quote:Originally posted by McMaddog
I'm guessing the 330s don't have the legs for any of the Far East destinations BTW.
They could in a pinch, but not with a very good payload. They can do LHR/LGW to the US west coast as well, but there starts to be payload limits, so I can see SFO going to a 346 route for a while.
Sad that this probably signals the end of the 744s at Virgin,
Mike
In the end yes, but not for a few more years.
quote:Originally posted by McMaddog
I still don't get the idea of putting the 346s on the B&S routes. Surely they're better on long haul, high cargo destinations. My thought is to put the 789s/330s on the US routes where frequency rules. Leave B744s out of LGW (of whatever configuration you like), and let the 346s continue to go South and East.
I'm guessing the 330s don't have the legs for any of the Far East destinations BTW.
The thing is, the 789's will be able to fly just as far as the 346's, but do it for a lot less money. Cargo makes good money when there is enough to fly, however having that amount of capacity flying around empty is a killer, so while cargo will take a hit I am sure that it has been figured that with increased ops the cargo side can be covered.
Now the 346's can haul a large amount of people, so they will work well on the B&S routes if that is where they end up.
quote:Originally posted by McMaddog
I'm guessing the 330s don't have the legs for any of the Far East destinations BTW.
They could in a pinch, but not with a very good payload. They can do LHR/LGW to the US west coast as well, but there starts to be payload limits, so I can see SFO going to a 346 route for a while.
How many times have VS and SRB done publicity like this for it to quietly die in the background? I'll believe it when I see the planes delivered.
quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion
How many times have VS and SRB done publicity like this for it to quietly die in the background? I'll believe it when I see the planes delivered.
I understand what you are saying, but the finance is in place for them, getting them cuts costs dramatically and they they get new planes, so lower MX costs.
How many times have VS and SRB done publicity like this for it to quietly die in the background? I'll believe it when I see the planes delivered.
I understand what you are saying, but the finance is in place for them, getting them cuts costs dramatically and they they get new planes, so lower MX costs.
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
Now the 346's can haul a large amount of people, so they will work well on the B&S routes if that is where they end up.
Yes, I'd forgotten how many people an A346 can hold, upto 372 whereas currently VS manage 315 in UC, PE and Y. So I'd guess that if you're right and 346s move to leisure routes then some reconfiguring might take place.
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
Distance ... they could in a pinch, but not with a very good payload. They can do LHR/LGW to the US west coast as well, but there starts to be payload limits, so I can see SFO going to a 346 route for a while.
The A333 will easily do LHR-SFO or LHR-JNB - some of the Asian routes might be out of reach. I believe one of the longest flights on a A333 is Qantas BOM-SYD at 5,500 nm and AF have used an A333 on CDG-SFO. Korean Airlines uses a A333 on Seoul to Amsterdam sometimes too!
So yes, the longer VS routes won't work for the 333, but many will.
I also recall one reference to a charter line in Scandinavia that put 410 seats on their A333s [:0] - that must be fun, not.
As to the cabin, for most carriers with forward facing seats I think the A333 is horrible, the curvature of the cabin means window seats suffer as your head can reach the wall pretty quickly ... similar of course to the 346. However in UC in herringbone format, it should be a dream [y].
I'm really keen to see the expansion and efficiencies that these aircraft will bring to VS. Oh, and a crow, in a recent post about the fleet I did say that I was very surprised that VS had not ordered the A330 ... [:w].
Now the 346's can haul a large amount of people, so they will work well on the B&S routes if that is where they end up.
Yes, I'd forgotten how many people an A346 can hold, upto 372 whereas currently VS manage 315 in UC, PE and Y. So I'd guess that if you're right and 346s move to leisure routes then some reconfiguring might take place.
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
Distance ... they could in a pinch, but not with a very good payload. They can do LHR/LGW to the US west coast as well, but there starts to be payload limits, so I can see SFO going to a 346 route for a while.
The A333 will easily do LHR-SFO or LHR-JNB - some of the Asian routes might be out of reach. I believe one of the longest flights on a A333 is Qantas BOM-SYD at 5,500 nm and AF have used an A333 on CDG-SFO. Korean Airlines uses a A333 on Seoul to Amsterdam sometimes too!
So yes, the longer VS routes won't work for the 333, but many will.
I also recall one reference to a charter line in Scandinavia that put 410 seats on their A333s [:0] - that must be fun, not.
As to the cabin, for most carriers with forward facing seats I think the A333 is horrible, the curvature of the cabin means window seats suffer as your head can reach the wall pretty quickly ... similar of course to the 346. However in UC in herringbone format, it should be a dream [y].
I'm really keen to see the expansion and efficiencies that these aircraft will bring to VS. Oh, and a crow, in a recent post about the fleet I did say that I was very surprised that VS had not ordered the A330 ... [:w].
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
The problem with the 333 is range, yes it can do it, bit for whatever reason SFO gets a lot of cargo, you combine the two and the 346 is better suited, though yes the 333 can do it.
Scandinavian fly to BKK with a 333 as well, we may be talking about the same thing.
It is a very good plane, combined with the 789's the future Lola better for VS, sad to see the 744's go when they do though, but the gauge downsize makes sense.
Scandinavian fly to BKK with a 333 as well, we may be talking about the same thing.
It is a very good plane, combined with the 789's the future Lola better for VS, sad to see the 744's go when they do though, but the gauge downsize makes sense.
Good News about some more planes. I was thinking the A333 would be a good plane for thinner B and S routes out of MAN and LGW?? Whilst allowing the 787-9 when they come on-line to replace the A343's and operate the thin long routes from LHR and add frequencies?
Also on PPrune and A.net it seems to be suggested that pilots can fly both the 330 and 340? Is this correct? If it is, crewing must be happy
Also on PPrune and A.net it seems to be suggested that pilots can fly both the 330 and 340? Is this correct? If it is, crewing must be happy
Does anyone have an idea of where these A333 are going to be based? Are they all going to be LHR based?
Its now been said that Cancun, Vancouver and Beijing are now possibilities of new routes, but what are the chances that the delivery of these 10 aircraft may lead to expansion at MAN (ie. LAS,JFK have been mensioned for a while)?
Its now been said that Cancun, Vancouver and Beijing are now possibilities of new routes, but what are the chances that the delivery of these 10 aircraft may lead to expansion at MAN (ie. LAS,JFK have been mensioned for a while)?
I must admit when I heard I was relieved as VS desperately need new aircraft to assist the fleet plus will be nice for the airline to expand to Beijing, Vancouver and Cancun hope there are more destinations on the board South America would be nice.
I really do think the loss of the 747 will be a sad one regardless of how long down the road they are the true planes of the skies IMHO. Anyway i hope there will be at least a few A380's VS need to have them for at least the high capacity routes. These would work for MCO so would certainly pay for themselves plus once again will show VS as a world carrier with a flagship brand new fleet.
The whole use of internet, email, and mobile phones to be used on planes will be a huge cue for VS and will once again show Virgin setting the mark with it being the first long haul carrier to roll the service across the fleet.
Will these next generation seats mean a new premium and upper cabin?
Alex
I really do think the loss of the 747 will be a sad one regardless of how long down the road they are the true planes of the skies IMHO. Anyway i hope there will be at least a few A380's VS need to have them for at least the high capacity routes. These would work for MCO so would certainly pay for themselves plus once again will show VS as a world carrier with a flagship brand new fleet.
The whole use of internet, email, and mobile phones to be used on planes will be a huge cue for VS and will once again show Virgin setting the mark with it being the first long haul carrier to roll the service across the fleet.
Will these next generation seats mean a new premium and upper cabin?
Alex
I seem to recall a member on these boards being shot down for suggesting that VS would order the 330. This of course was about 2-3 years ago but am not surprised it has come true.
We have been debating on here a lot lately about the movement of a/c within the VS fleet.
I certainly feel that these a/c are essentially the deferred 346's as others have stated.
The 330 would fit very well with any expansion out of MAN and GLA. MAN for example is crying out for a direct west coast US route (as well as at least one far east connection now that SQ are pulling out (granted the 330 would struggle)).
I am also not up to speed at the moment on what 744's VS actually own and when the leased a/c leases run out.
I need to have a bit more thought on this but those are my initial thoughts.
We have been debating on here a lot lately about the movement of a/c within the VS fleet.
I certainly feel that these a/c are essentially the deferred 346's as others have stated.
The 330 would fit very well with any expansion out of MAN and GLA. MAN for example is crying out for a direct west coast US route (as well as at least one far east connection now that SQ are pulling out (granted the 330 would struggle)).
I am also not up to speed at the moment on what 744's VS actually own and when the leased a/c leases run out.
I need to have a bit more thought on this but those are my initial thoughts.
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