quote:Originally posted by Sealink
Mobile phone use on planes? Please no!
Apparently only texting.
Interestingly, the A346 remaining order and the A380 order are still listed on Airbus's books. I can't imagine the 346 ever materialising but I take it back about the A380 - while the 333s and all are mighty fine planes, the 380 will bring some glamour back to VS and will work exceedingly well on routes such as SYD, JFK, SFO, MCO - I can see this being a great addition.
Oh and BKK and GIG have also been rumoured as new destinations [y].
Speculating, I foresee a cancellation of the 787s and VS ordering the A350 down the line to replace the 346s [:w]. See here for a story around this - suggesting up to 50 A350s from 2014 ...
Mobile phone use on planes? Please no!
Apparently only texting.
Interestingly, the A346 remaining order and the A380 order are still listed on Airbus's books. I can't imagine the 346 ever materialising but I take it back about the A380 - while the 333s and all are mighty fine planes, the 380 will bring some glamour back to VS and will work exceedingly well on routes such as SYD, JFK, SFO, MCO - I can see this being a great addition.
Oh and BKK and GIG have also been rumoured as new destinations [y].
Speculating, I foresee a cancellation of the 787s and VS ordering the A350 down the line to replace the 346s [:w]. See here for a story around this - suggesting up to 50 A350s from 2014 ...
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
quote:Originally posted by willd
I certainly feel that these a/c are essentially the deferred 346's as others have stated.
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
Interestingly, the A346 remaining order and the A380 order are still listed on Airbus's books.
As Slinky says, the 346's are still on the order books, though this may just be Airbus being behind on updating their website.
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
I can't imagine the 346 ever materialising but I take it back about the A380 - while the 333s and all are mighty fine planes, the 380 will bring some glamour back to VS and will work exceedingly well on routes such as SYD, JFK, SFO, MCO - I can see this being a great addition.
For VS, the 380 is to much plane for SYD, JFK and SFO, the only place I could see them going is MCO.
I certainly feel that these a/c are essentially the deferred 346's as others have stated.
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
Interestingly, the A346 remaining order and the A380 order are still listed on Airbus's books.
As Slinky says, the 346's are still on the order books, though this may just be Airbus being behind on updating their website.
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
I can't imagine the 346 ever materialising but I take it back about the A380 - while the 333s and all are mighty fine planes, the 380 will bring some glamour back to VS and will work exceedingly well on routes such as SYD, JFK, SFO, MCO - I can see this being a great addition.
For VS, the 380 is to much plane for SYD, JFK and SFO, the only place I could see them going is MCO.
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
Speculating, I foresee a cancellation of the 787s and VS ordering the A350 down the line to replace the 346s [:w]. See here for a story around this - suggesting up to 50 A350s from 2014 ...
...and a nice sweetheart deal for 350s comes with the 333 order...
Speculating, I foresee a cancellation of the 787s and VS ordering the A350 down the line to replace the 346s [:w]. See here for a story around this - suggesting up to 50 A350s from 2014 ...
...and a nice sweetheart deal for 350s comes with the 333 order...
So the disappearance of the 744 - sad. Can the re-train pilots onto the Airbus planes or will these pilots be out of a job a few years down the road if/when the 744's disappear?
The way I see it, the 333 is going to become Virgins lower demand leisure routes and business routes from London and hopefully Manchester. Thus replacing the 340-300. The problem with the 333 is it doesn't have the range to do long routes effectively that's when you need the 346. And the 744 are used for the very high demand routes. The next problem you have is the 789 have the range but not a lot of capacity and will be arriving 2 years after the 333. There not likely to replace the 333 after that long. The 358 could replace the 333 and 351 could replace the 346. But i personally don't see the 346's going until at least 2018. So if Virgin wanted to they could cancel the 789 and order the 358/351 to replace the 333 and 346 in about 10 years time. The next question is what replaces the 744. I guess it will be the 380 (Even though I'd love it the be the 748). I think Boeing are losing out because the 787 doesn't have an option to replace the 340 because they are waiting for the 777NG for that. I think if the 787-10 was launched then Virgin might consider operating the 787-9/787-10 and then 380??? I for one hope Virgin don't go completely Airbus. Boeing Make very good aircraft and their planes have a place in the fleet. If I was CEO id have the following fleet:
787-9 Based at LHR replacing the 343 and expanding
333 Based at LGW and MAN for Leisure Routes
346 Based at LHR
380 Based at LHR/LGW for high density routes.
In the future maybe the 350 or 777NG to replace the 346 but that wont be until 2020ish.
Just my thoughts.
787-9 Based at LHR replacing the 343 and expanding
333 Based at LGW and MAN for Leisure Routes
346 Based at LHR
380 Based at LHR/LGW for high density routes.
In the future maybe the 350 or 777NG to replace the 346 but that wont be until 2020ish.
Just my thoughts.
quote:Originally posted by flyerdavid
So the disappearance of the 744 - sad. Can the re-train pilots onto the Airbus planes or will these pilots be out of a job a few years down the road if/when the 744's disappear?
Yes they can easily convert to an Airbus rating - a lot of the pilots on the Airbus used to fly the 744s beforehand.
So the disappearance of the 744 - sad. Can the re-train pilots onto the Airbus planes or will these pilots be out of a job a few years down the road if/when the 744's disappear?
Yes they can easily convert to an Airbus rating - a lot of the pilots on the Airbus used to fly the 744s beforehand.
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
quote:Originally posted by willd
I certainly feel that these a/c are essentially the deferred 346's as others have stated.
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
Interestingly, the A346 remaining order and the A380 order are still listed on Airbus's books.
As Slinky says, the 346's are still on the order books, though this may just be Airbus being behind on updating their website.
Yes Airbus could be slow at updating. Equally VS or Airbus could have been quite specific that they do not want it to be announced that the 330 order replaces the 346 order for whatever reason.
THe 34x line has taken a bit of a hit lately. IT have pretty much said they do not want their order, QR have gone on record as saying its a pretty bad plane when compared with the 77W. AC made a dramatic switch to the 77W, SQ have hardly been happy with the 345's, EK seem to have the the 34x for just a couple of routes. So maybe, this is of course me taking two and two and getting six, but could it be that Airbus do not want more 'bad' press on the 34x line?
quote:
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
I can't imagine the 346 ever materialising but I take it back about the A380 - while the 333s and all are mighty fine planes, the 380 will bring some glamour back to VS and will work exceedingly well on routes such as SYD, JFK, SFO, MCO - I can see this being a great addition.
For VS, the 380 is to much plane for SYD, JFK and SFO, the only place I could see them going is MCO.
I would agree with MCO. I am struggling to see where else VS would send the aircraft.
quote:Originally posted by willd
I certainly feel that these a/c are essentially the deferred 346's as others have stated.
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
Interestingly, the A346 remaining order and the A380 order are still listed on Airbus's books.
As Slinky says, the 346's are still on the order books, though this may just be Airbus being behind on updating their website.
Yes Airbus could be slow at updating. Equally VS or Airbus could have been quite specific that they do not want it to be announced that the 330 order replaces the 346 order for whatever reason.
THe 34x line has taken a bit of a hit lately. IT have pretty much said they do not want their order, QR have gone on record as saying its a pretty bad plane when compared with the 77W. AC made a dramatic switch to the 77W, SQ have hardly been happy with the 345's, EK seem to have the the 34x for just a couple of routes. So maybe, this is of course me taking two and two and getting six, but could it be that Airbus do not want more 'bad' press on the 34x line?
quote:
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
I can't imagine the 346 ever materialising but I take it back about the A380 - while the 333s and all are mighty fine planes, the 380 will bring some glamour back to VS and will work exceedingly well on routes such as SYD, JFK, SFO, MCO - I can see this being a great addition.
For VS, the 380 is to much plane for SYD, JFK and SFO, the only place I could see them going is MCO.
I would agree with MCO. I am struggling to see where else VS would send the aircraft.
quote:Originally posted by willd
THe 34x line has taken a bit of a hit lately. IT have pretty much said they do not want their order, QR have gone on record as saying its a pretty bad plane when compared with the 77W. AC made a dramatic switch to the 77W, SQ have hardly been happy with the 345's, EK seem to have the the 34x for just a couple of routes. So maybe, this is of course me taking two and two and getting six, but could it be that Airbus do not want more 'bad' press on the 34x line?
The A34x may not have been a stellar seller - but it's reasonable enough and I believe has been profitable for Airbus, largely given that the A330 has been such a success and shares quite a bit of commonality. Compared to the 747, which at least the A346 was designed to compete with, it is very efficient. It's misfortune was the 777 and the range and operating cost of the T7 variants made the 34x a hard sell.
The QR comment by their CEO was widely panned - if you put 346s on 3 or 4 hours routes as QR has done it performs terribly in terms of opcost. Put it on 12 hr+ routes and it performs very well, as VS themselves have found out. For VS, the 346 to Asia, Australia and West Coast US is a good plane, I can see the 333 doing East Coast, Africa (not SA), India and perhaps some other routes and it'll be a great plane for these.
THe 34x line has taken a bit of a hit lately. IT have pretty much said they do not want their order, QR have gone on record as saying its a pretty bad plane when compared with the 77W. AC made a dramatic switch to the 77W, SQ have hardly been happy with the 345's, EK seem to have the the 34x for just a couple of routes. So maybe, this is of course me taking two and two and getting six, but could it be that Airbus do not want more 'bad' press on the 34x line?
The A34x may not have been a stellar seller - but it's reasonable enough and I believe has been profitable for Airbus, largely given that the A330 has been such a success and shares quite a bit of commonality. Compared to the 747, which at least the A346 was designed to compete with, it is very efficient. It's misfortune was the 777 and the range and operating cost of the T7 variants made the 34x a hard sell.
The QR comment by their CEO was widely panned - if you put 346s on 3 or 4 hours routes as QR has done it performs terribly in terms of opcost. Put it on 12 hr+ routes and it performs very well, as VS themselves have found out. For VS, the 346 to Asia, Australia and West Coast US is a good plane, I can see the 333 doing East Coast, Africa (not SA), India and perhaps some other routes and it'll be a great plane for these.
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
The A34x may not have been a stellar seller - but it's reasonable enough and I believe has been profitable for Airbus, largely given that the A330 has been such a success and shares quite a bit of commonality. Compared to the 747, which at least the A346 was designed to compete with, it is very efficient. It's misfortune was the 777 and the range and operating cost of the T7 variants made the 34x a hard sell.
Exactly. The 34x had a role to play. I wonder just how much Airbus have stopped pushing it, especially since the 330 is proving so popular. Sadly though, IMHO, the offering from Boeing was a lot better and a lot of carriers seem to agree.
quote:
Put it on 12 hr+ routes and it performs very well, as VS themselves have found out. For VS, the 346 to Asia, Australia and West Coast US is a good plane, I can see the 333 doing East Coast, Africa (not SA), India and perhaps some other routes and it'll be a great plane for these.
I am not 100% sure where I see the 330 actually going. It could be very interesting.
As Ryan and Denzil have hinted at, the 330 would be very well suited for any expansion out of MAN and for some of the less popular B+S routes (where cargo isn't a priority), for example would NAS have worked had VS operated 3 x 330 instead of the 744 frequency they selected.
I think VS have finally realised that they have been missing out on a lot of potential routes because they didn't have a plane small enough. It also works well as they can add frequency to routes that are in demand. In a way mirroring what AF do. AF send the 330 in on routes where they have more demand than the current 77W or 744 on the route. This is an excellent option that VS now have.
Equally there is an argument that VS could use the 330 in some sort of SQ or EK copycat structure.
SQ seem to be intent on using the 330 on lower yielding routes of less than c.7hours, such as PER and BNE. THis could well be an option for VS and could open up some new destinations.
EK adopt an altogether different approach, which Denzil will correct me on, but my take on it is that they enter the 330 into markets at the start (eg: BHX, GLA, NCL) once the route is established they increase capacity if needs be.
To be fair I think VS will adopt its own approach. THe 330 will work well in opening up new destinations that are not ready for the 346/744/789/388; it will also work well in helping add additional capacity to current routes; and could supplement the LGW operations very well.
The 330 will be an excellent plane, there is no doubting that. Funny how times have changed, people balked at the thought of VS getting the 330 about three years ago.
The A34x may not have been a stellar seller - but it's reasonable enough and I believe has been profitable for Airbus, largely given that the A330 has been such a success and shares quite a bit of commonality. Compared to the 747, which at least the A346 was designed to compete with, it is very efficient. It's misfortune was the 777 and the range and operating cost of the T7 variants made the 34x a hard sell.
Exactly. The 34x had a role to play. I wonder just how much Airbus have stopped pushing it, especially since the 330 is proving so popular. Sadly though, IMHO, the offering from Boeing was a lot better and a lot of carriers seem to agree.
quote:
Put it on 12 hr+ routes and it performs very well, as VS themselves have found out. For VS, the 346 to Asia, Australia and West Coast US is a good plane, I can see the 333 doing East Coast, Africa (not SA), India and perhaps some other routes and it'll be a great plane for these.
I am not 100% sure where I see the 330 actually going. It could be very interesting.
As Ryan and Denzil have hinted at, the 330 would be very well suited for any expansion out of MAN and for some of the less popular B+S routes (where cargo isn't a priority), for example would NAS have worked had VS operated 3 x 330 instead of the 744 frequency they selected.
I think VS have finally realised that they have been missing out on a lot of potential routes because they didn't have a plane small enough. It also works well as they can add frequency to routes that are in demand. In a way mirroring what AF do. AF send the 330 in on routes where they have more demand than the current 77W or 744 on the route. This is an excellent option that VS now have.
Equally there is an argument that VS could use the 330 in some sort of SQ or EK copycat structure.
SQ seem to be intent on using the 330 on lower yielding routes of less than c.7hours, such as PER and BNE. THis could well be an option for VS and could open up some new destinations.
EK adopt an altogether different approach, which Denzil will correct me on, but my take on it is that they enter the 330 into markets at the start (eg: BHX, GLA, NCL) once the route is established they increase capacity if needs be.
To be fair I think VS will adopt its own approach. THe 330 will work well in opening up new destinations that are not ready for the 346/744/789/388; it will also work well in helping add additional capacity to current routes; and could supplement the LGW operations very well.
The 330 will be an excellent plane, there is no doubting that. Funny how times have changed, people balked at the thought of VS getting the 330 about three years ago.
Absolutely the 330 is a great plane for VS on it's shorter routes. It's the longer one's that will be the problem. The 744's day's are numbered [:#] sad but when you can fly 2x 333 or 789 down the same route for less money carrying more pax and cargo then you really have to do it.
I am thinking that the 789 order won't be canceled, at least not yet, it gives to much leverage in order negotiations for VS to throw away that chip. Now as much as I love the T7 (VS really did miss that boat) ican see VS going all Airbus in the next ten years, 333's and 359's
The fuel savings are just to large to ignore, the 380's are to much plane and Airbus does a fantastic job of updating their aircraft constantly, the 333 being a great example of this.
Now one thing to think about, with all the order talks, if (and it's a very big if) all the orders (333.789.380.359) were to be delivered, VS would end up with 80+ aircraft, they don't need that many even with a big expansion, so something isn't going to make it.
I am thinking that the 789 order won't be canceled, at least not yet, it gives to much leverage in order negotiations for VS to throw away that chip. Now as much as I love the T7 (VS really did miss that boat) ican see VS going all Airbus in the next ten years, 333's and 359's
The fuel savings are just to large to ignore, the 380's are to much plane and Airbus does a fantastic job of updating their aircraft constantly, the 333 being a great example of this.
Now one thing to think about, with all the order talks, if (and it's a very big if) all the orders (333.789.380.359) were to be delivered, VS would end up with 80+ aircraft, they don't need that many even with a big expansion, so something isn't going to make it.
The 744 days are really numbered. I believe that we will slowly begin to see the 744's being returned to their leasing companies or being sold onto other carriers, possibly for cargo conversion. I am trying to find a full list of which aircraft in VS are owned directly by VS. THis is proving hard to come by.
One would imagine that the LGW based 744's which were destined to AZ will be amongst the last to leave the fleet as they have less hours on the clock (FAB is at 78,000 hours compared to ROS at 34,000) and their leases have just been updated for another 5 years.
We must also remember that the 343's will probably need retiring at some point.
I think we are all in agreement that the 777 was a huge miss for VS.
SO as Scrooge points out the 333, 780, 380 and 359 are all heading to VS. Could it be that the 333 is being used as a sort of stop gap measure, this could be wise if the 789 continues to be delayed and the 359 hits some glitches. THe lack of an announcement at Paris last week could also highlight that VS just see the 333 as an almost temporary measure until the 359 arrives, especially when they realise the 343s will not last that long. However I do struggle to see how firstly VS will use the 380 and secondly how exactly the 789 and 359 can operate together. We have seen carriers fail at getting the 777 and 34x to work side by side for example.
BTW I have just looked at the official Airbus Press Release and it clearly states the 333 will be used for US and Caribbean routes.
I am thinking we should all be signing up for this course.
One would imagine that the LGW based 744's which were destined to AZ will be amongst the last to leave the fleet as they have less hours on the clock (FAB is at 78,000 hours compared to ROS at 34,000) and their leases have just been updated for another 5 years.
We must also remember that the 343's will probably need retiring at some point.
I think we are all in agreement that the 777 was a huge miss for VS.
SO as Scrooge points out the 333, 780, 380 and 359 are all heading to VS. Could it be that the 333 is being used as a sort of stop gap measure, this could be wise if the 789 continues to be delayed and the 359 hits some glitches. THe lack of an announcement at Paris last week could also highlight that VS just see the 333 as an almost temporary measure until the 359 arrives, especially when they realise the 343s will not last that long. However I do struggle to see how firstly VS will use the 380 and secondly how exactly the 789 and 359 can operate together. We have seen carriers fail at getting the 777 and 34x to work side by side for example.
BTW I have just looked at the official Airbus Press Release and it clearly states the 333 will be used for US and Caribbean routes.
I am thinking we should all be signing up for this course.
If insiders are to be believed, when the A330 was nearly signed for a few years ago it was to cover all aspects of the route structure. One side that has proved to be a money maker is the B & S routes (hence BA are now taking a more seious look at these routes). The A330 was apparently going to be used heavily out of MAN & also GLA would get more frequencys (perhaps even a weekly Barbados & Las Vegas!!!).
The B744 will still serve some routes well & the used market as either a passenger aircraft or for BCF has dropped off now the A380 is in service. All this should allow VS to get good deals on extending the leases.
With regards the old A346/B777 argument. If you've commited to the A346 (as VS have) then you must make the most of them, CX dipped a toe in the water with their 3 aircraft & based on this ended up getting the B777-300ER. If it was my money, the cheque would be heading to Seattle!!
The B744 will still serve some routes well & the used market as either a passenger aircraft or for BCF has dropped off now the A380 is in service. All this should allow VS to get good deals on extending the leases.
With regards the old A346/B777 argument. If you've commited to the A346 (as VS have) then you must make the most of them, CX dipped a toe in the water with their 3 aircraft & based on this ended up getting the B777-300ER. If it was my money, the cheque would be heading to Seattle!!
quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
Now one thing to think about, with all the order talks, if (and it's a very big if) all the orders (333.789.380.359) were to be delivered, VS would end up with 80+ aircraft, they don't need that many even with a big expansion, so something isn't going to make it.
Yes, that was my analysis too - 12 A333s, 6 A380s, 15 B787s and then potentially 50 A350s = 83 aircraft over fourteen years (since the first will not come until 2011). Add that to the current fleet, of which some still have good legs, well it just doesn't add up compared to the current fleet of 38 aircraft and no more slots at Heathrow. Something has to give ... I will wager a good bet that the 787s will and also the 380s,though I am loathe to see the latter not appear in VS colours!
As to the announcement and Paris, Paris was nothing to do with it, 25 birthday celebrations was all.
Now one thing to think about, with all the order talks, if (and it's a very big if) all the orders (333.789.380.359) were to be delivered, VS would end up with 80+ aircraft, they don't need that many even with a big expansion, so something isn't going to make it.
Yes, that was my analysis too - 12 A333s, 6 A380s, 15 B787s and then potentially 50 A350s = 83 aircraft over fourteen years (since the first will not come until 2011). Add that to the current fleet, of which some still have good legs, well it just doesn't add up compared to the current fleet of 38 aircraft and no more slots at Heathrow. Something has to give ... I will wager a good bet that the 787s will and also the 380s,though I am loathe to see the latter not appear in VS colours!
As to the announcement and Paris, Paris was nothing to do with it, 25 birthday celebrations was all.
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
Interesting snippet from A.Net, SRB talking in Washington last week:
'someone asks him a question of what Virgin will do with the A380. I expected an evasive answer but instead heard a very confident, it will be used for Tokyo, HKG, SYD, LAX, JFK and we are talking to Airbus about a stretched version'
Interesting ...
'someone asks him a question of what Virgin will do with the A380. I expected an evasive answer but instead heard a very confident, it will be used for Tokyo, HKG, SYD, LAX, JFK and we are talking to Airbus about a stretched version'
Interesting ...
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
quote:Originally posted by slinky09
Interesting snippet from A.Net, SRB talking in Washington last week:
'someone asks him a question of what Virgin will do with the A380. I expected an evasive answer but instead heard a very confident, it will be used for Tokyo, HKG, SYD, LAX, JFK and we are talking to Airbus about a stretched version'
Interesting ...
As has been noted many times in the past, SRB is not a good source to quote, he has good idea's, but really has very little to do with the airline now days.
Interesting snippet from A.Net, SRB talking in Washington last week:
'someone asks him a question of what Virgin will do with the A380. I expected an evasive answer but instead heard a very confident, it will be used for Tokyo, HKG, SYD, LAX, JFK and we are talking to Airbus about a stretched version'
Interesting ...
As has been noted many times in the past, SRB is not a good source to quote, he has good idea's, but really has very little to do with the airline now days.
quote:Originally posted by McMaddog
hehe but technically the A340-600 is still the longest passenger ac in the sky.
...hence it's propensity for tailstrikes! [}:)]
hehe but technically the A340-600 is still the longest passenger ac in the sky.
...hence it's propensity for tailstrikes! [}:)]
An A380 for MAN - MCO?
One plane to cover the (sometimes)two flights?
One plane to cover the (sometimes)two flights?
Stephen.
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