Just been reminded how good VS used to be

Family has just returned from holiday in LA. This is the four flight now with AA since defecting from VS after 14 years.

I must say the last couple of flights on AA reminded me of the great level of service VS used to provide on their airline. (The main reason we used them for so long).

Other than the flight being more enjoyable than anything VS could provide in the last 4 years or so, one major benefit is the fact you can be out of the airport in less than 1hr from touchdown! This last flight we were out of LAX and at car rental within half hour.

Another thing my wife pointed out was that the cabin crew were a lot older and professional and werent interesting in talking about what they were going to get upto or have got upto while off duty.

[RichardMannion]

quote:Originally posted by sickbag
Another thing my wife pointed out was that the cabin crew were a lot older and professional and werent interesting in talking about what they were going to get upto or have got upto while off duty.



I think that is the crux of the whole service issue at the moment in my book. I'm not tarnishing all with the same brush, but maybe the standards of hiring have slipped. I seem to remember a while ago, a member of crew revealed that the minimum age to apply was lowered from 21 to 18.

Knock it down to 16 and maybe I'll buy a ticket.

GJ

quote:Originally posted by sickbag
Family has just returned from holiday in LA. This is the four flight now with AA since defecting from VS after 14 years.


Funny, as soon as I had a choice with corporate travel I dropped AA like a stone and came back to VS.

quote:Originally posted by sickbag
I must say the last couple of flights on AA reminded me of the great level of service VS used to provide on their airline. (The main reason we used them for so long).


I've four flights with VS in the next three weeks, if any are as bad as my recent LHR-JFK or indeed DL's, I'll start to echo this statement!

quote:Originally posted by sickbag
Other than the flight being more enjoyable than anything VS could provide in the last 4 years or so, one major benefit is the fact you can be out of the airport in less than 1hr from touchdown! This last flight we were out of LAX and at car rental within half hour.


Was it - I DID do LAX in AA First last October, I can't remember anything 'fun' about it, yes I had lots of space, so I'm glad you enjoyed it, but then in Y it may be the case ... but ...

quote:Originally posted by sickbag
Another thing my wife pointed out was that the cabin crew were a lot older and professional and werent interesting in talking about what they were going to get upto or have got upto while off duty.


Indeed they are, AA can't get rid of them [}:)] - glad you had some good ones, thing is, on the flip side they can be real gorgons [B)].

quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion
quote:Originally posted by sickbag
Another thing my wife pointed out was that the cabin crew were a lot older and professional and werent interesting in talking about what they were going to get upto or have got upto while off duty.



I think that is the crux of the whole service issue at the moment in my book. I'm not tarnishing all with the same brush, but maybe the standards of hiring have slipped. I seem to remember a while ago, a member of crew revealed that the minimum age to apply was lowered from 21 to 18.


It can also work the other way though- old people can also offer poor service due often to a 'why should I change' attitude. People often complain about the surly older members of crew on board legacy carriers. For example last week I stayed in an RC in the States and the worst service I received was from an older member of staff, in comparison, the younger staff members were excellent.

The problem is not necessarily the age of the crew but the level of training is not as good. Regardless of age, if you receive less training (or training at not such a good level) then you will clearly not be as good at your job. On the flip side, if because your newer you receive better training (i.e. the company has improved in-house training) then you will get a better service.

I also think VS have not helped themselves. A quick look at cc.com shows a lot of people are desperate to work for VS. Maybe though once in the company the attitude of some is not what it used to be, due in part to the internal systems VS operate and a view that VS do not treat its crew as well as it should (e.g. Cutting down on layover stops, issues surrounding down route allowances and then there is the issues that resulted in the 'Facebook 13'). Granted none of that should come through to the customers, sadly it does though.

When I first travelled with VS in the early 90's it was the fact that the crew were young and enthusiastic that made the trip so enjoyable and set it apart from other airlines. It really was a party bus with great service added to the mix.

To keep me on side I need to know at the point of booking that my business class ticket will ensure a level of service and overall experience that offers value for money when compared with the competition. Comments recently indicate that this is just not happening regularly enough. Interestingly, I used to get a phone call from VS whilst being driven home after flights asking for my comments but this has not happened for a while?

quote:Originally posted by Jacki
Interestingly, I used to get a phone call from VS whilst being driven home after flights asking for my comments but this has not happened for a while?


Golly, yes, I remember those ... in fact one rarely gets a phone call at all nowadays, conversation with VS is all one way.

[Scrooge]

Could it be us ?

Maybe as the years have gone by, as we start to get older we start looking for more than 'the fun factor', I know for me as I have gotten older I am less likely to just let stuff go, where once I would of laughed at some of the stuff that is happening I now look at it as unprofessional or just plain stupid, my expectations and wants have changed, maybe VS needs to update it's training or...I start to look for another airline.

In the last 5 years I have flown 3 airlines trans Atlantic, Maxjet, BA and VS in premium cabins, now the crazy thing is, the airline that had the least up to date hardware (Maxjet) to me provided the best service, even though their FF program sucked, even though the IFE was a digi player even though the seat wasn't a flat bed, I would fly them today because the service was fantastic and the food was good.

If I am remembering correctly the crew for Maxjet (and a couple of the other all J carriers) were trained by people who ran 5 star hotels, it showed, nw while the primary job of cabin crew is safety, let's face facts, the other parts of their jobs it kind of important as well..... I will leave it at that.

quote:Originally posted by Scrooge
Could it be us ?

Possibly.As I've got older my expectations have changed too. 'The 'Fun Factor' really doesn't interest me any more. Consistency is far more important for me these days. I'd much rather see a more mature crew base who can deliver the service level that I (reasonably, I think) expect.

DL

[RichardMannion]

quote:Originally posted by willd

The problem is not necessarily the age of the crew but the level of training is not as good. Regardless of age, if you receive less training (or training at not such a good level) then you will clearly not be as good at your job. On the flip side, if because your newer you receive better training (i.e. the company has improved in-house training) then you will get a better service.


Have to disagree with you there - some people are naturally suited to working in a customer facing, service role. Training is a component but not the key aspect - how do you teach someone common sense? How do you train someone to look after an Upper passenger if they have no experience of flying in that cabin, and the expectations that go with it? I see two types of crew, those who want to make a career out of it, and those that just want to see the world; it's the latter group that then try and do the former where the issues normally arise. I've done a number of customer facing roles with no or little training (my training in my last role, was a conference once a year for 5 days) - does that mean that clearly mean I'm no good at my job?

I cringe when I read CC.com and see some of the people that have been accepted for crew training, with their poor attitudes; like some of the responses from crew I have seen in certain threads here on VFlyer. There is bubbly and outgoing, but then there is also a need for common sense, understanding of what constitues good service and taking the job and customer seriously.

So the training is a moot point in my book, as you could take anyone and shovel them through the VS training course and very few would not make it out the otherside as a member of crew. Before the investment in putting a person through the sheep dip, the right calibre of candidates need to be attracted - people with the basics, the concept of what is good customer service, some maturity and someone that values their job.

[Scrooge]

Just a civil reminder that as once again the crew issue is raising it's head, this is not an us or them thread, so please, don't generalize to much as we all know there are a lot of crew that go above and beyond, now if you want to pan their training, feel free.

As LRoM points out, did VS get to lax with their hiring and screening process ?

quote:'this is not an us or them thread'
I would guess that some crew are even stronger critics of bad service than many passengers.

[Scrooge]

This is certainly true, however there are also some that view this whole subject as a 'we can do know wrong' thing, however these thread can get very heated at times and are rarely constructive.

[Nottingham Nick]

Age has nothing to do with good or bad service.

There are some excellent young crew; and excellent 'more mature' [:D] crew. There are also a small number of crew that are in the wrong job.

Richard, I am amazed that you of all people would use such an ageist clich. Years ago, it was always you having a pop at the attitude of older people towards younger UC passengers, and general discrimination against young people doing a job usually done by people of more mature age.

My, how times change. [;)]

Experience may be a factor, but age isn't. IMHO The root problems are VS recruiting the wrong people; and the ongoing assessment process failing to root out the poor staff.

The current system appears wide open to abuse. From what I am told, if a crew member is pally with the right people on board, they will get a good report. [n] To a great extent, this is human nature - you look after your mates. It will only change if VS use a more independent assessment process - secret shoppers and the like. But, of course, this will cost money. [:w]

Just my two cents.

Nick

quote:Originally posted by Nottingham Nick
It will only change if VS use a more independent assessment process - secret shoppers and the like.

Spot on Nick!
And a few simple random follow-up telephone calls, as mentioned above, would cost very little.

[RichardMannion]

quote:Originally posted by Nottingham Nick
Richard, I am amazed that you of all people would use such an ageist clich. Years ago, it was always you having a pop at the attitude of older people towards younger UC passengers, and general discrimination against young people doing a job usually done by people of more mature age.

My, how times change. [;)]


Maybe times do change [:w]

I think we're both on the same page in reality; I've got no issues with a young person doing a job, but there is a need to make sure they are a suitable candidate in the first place.

Now older people attitudes to younger UC passengers, that's a different kettle of fish if the entity is the person paying the fare. I expect it from certain types of other passengers, but it is not expected from crew (though it has been a long time since I have had that onboard); though we then have seen here on the boards the small number of crew with the 'your company is paying for your UC travel' attitudes. They are the group that I have an issue with.

I'd imagine the 21 to 18 limit was changed due to recent UK age discrimination legislation for employers.

Whilst on the subject of training etc., I feel that this also applies to the VS customer services side. I recently contacted them reference an earlier booking we have for Feb 2010, and after the quoted 21 day period, no reply. A letter was then sent. Yes after 14 days, no reply. I wasnt unduly bothered whether they agreed with me or not, a reply would have been appreciated.
( This is the second time this has now happened, the first I just put down to it being lostin the system) It does give me the feeling that they have no interest in you whatsoever.
So based upon this, if I feel this strongly about it,I can only do the next best thing and vote with my legs and try another airline. Its a great shame as we have been flying VS for the past 12 years and have always had excellent service from the cabin crew, whether economy or premium. I have, on a few occasions put pen to paper to VS to say thankyou. But I now wonder whether or not they ever took notice!!

When I wrote in once due to problems with a christmas flight I waited 3 weeks before contacting customer service to see why they hadnt replied. You would not believe their response in a million years;

Quote 'We've had a lot of complaints over christmas and its talking us a while to get through them all. We'll try and respond in the next couple of weeks!'

Even if that was true you dont tell your customers that over the phone!

All such observations are subjective, especially so those that compare today with the 'good old days' of yore.
That said, in those early days VS had youthful, can-do, super-service and put-right-any-mistake enthusiasm on side.
So when a (n economy) flight went wrong and I complained, VS called me and upgraded my next transatlantic economy to Upper Class.
On the strength of which I recommended VS to everyone, and friends who would not have flown VS did so.
But over time the youthful enthusiasm 'matured' into just another boring job reminiscent of BA (and AA) the only other transatlantic carriers I've used.
My last VS flight, 6 from MIA, the female cabin crew in economy were appalling, serving then clearing away very slowly, all the time engrossed in conversation with each other about explicit personal matters, the passengers clearly an unwelcome intrusion in the performance of their self-conscious soap opera.
When an arguably good-looking young male cabin crew came by, the females' attention turned from nonsensing each other to impressing him.
Meanwhile, the only other male cabin crew, a short, fat, bald, older guy, did his best, which was not very good either - age is no bar to incompetence!
So next trip it's back to BA for me, not only to sample the (now) nice T5, but in the hope the aircaft cabin is crewed by old dragons whose sexploits are spared the passengers, whether by decency or ageful forgetfulness.

One can but hope that senior members of VS actually read some of these post's !

I too used to recommend VS and couldnt speak highly enough of them in the early days. If I had earned a commission on all those that actually took flights with VS as a result (family/friends), I would have made a pretty penny.

I havent recommended VS is the last 4 or so years, in fact all family/friends got to hear from our last lot of trips was how bad it was!