Is it really on?

Hi,

I don't really like moaning about Virgin because I do think that they are a really good airline but, nearly everytime I have traveled from Gatwick in the last few years there has been some sort of problem with the inflight entertainment where it eather not works for certain people or the sound is a problem for some people or the screens are broken. Is this really fair because then you look at their flight details e.t.c I says free TV's for everybody (this is also stated in the Virgin Holidays brochure) I know they do have DVD players to give to people when there entertainment system goes wrong but they always run out of them and the movies shown on them are usually older than the ones on the normal entertainment system. I know there is a recession however will it really burn a huge hole in Virgin's pocket to just upgrade the entertainment systems of 'nova' and 'oddesey' just because there nearly always going wrong???

[Neil]

Unfortunately VS won't be upgrading the IFE on the LGW/MAN, for various reasons really. The main one currently is the economic climate, airlines around the world are making huge loses, just look at BA, and we are only like to see more cuts rather than investment.

The other is the new a/c that VS have on order, there is still an awful lot of uncertainty as to which airports/routes they will operate and how that will affect the current fleet, so whilst this is all sorted VS won't spend 2million + per a/c (the reported cost to install V-Port on an a/c) when they might get rid of some of them. It is the same reason why they new PE seats haven't been installed either.

[Nottingham Nick]

Recent reports suggest that the decreased strain on the LGW / MAN fleet has allowed the aircraft to spend more time on the ground, and a lot of repairs have been carried out to the IFE and other niggling things that needed to be fixed.

This is anecdotal, as it is many years since I have flown on one of the LGW/MAN planes.

As Neil has said, the reason they haven't been updated is simple .... money!

Whether this is a good decision in the long term, as more and more MCO / Vegas / Caribbean regulars turn their backs on VS - only time will tell.

Nick

[mitchja]

quote:Originally posted by Nottingham Nick


Whether this is a good decision in the long term, as more and more MCO / Vegas / Caribbean regulars turn their backs on VS - only time will tell.

Nick


I'm not sure that's actually true though. Is there any evidence of this? Are the LGW/MAN routes loosing more pax than LHR ones? In general, most of the culled routes do tend to be LHR routes.

What you do need to remember as well is that most pax probably have no idea of what IFE to expect. Been a V-Flyer (or a member of another airline/travel online forum) puts you in a position of knowing exactly what you should get and tends to increase your expectations.

My parents recently flew to/from MCO from MAN. Not sure what the A/C reg's where but out-bound they got Nova and in-bound they got Odyssey. On both flights, my parents both said the A/C was clean, tidy and well presented. The IFE worked for them both ways.

In fact, on the whole, they where very impressed with the VS service and would have no hesitation in flying from MAN on VS again.

You have to remember than when someone receives bad service, they are going to shout louder about it than if they receive great service.

In all the VS flights I've done (50+) I've actually have more IFE problems on LHR flights (generally V:Port)

Regards

[Neil]

I agree James, because of this site we are far more aware of what should/shouldn't happen and all the bits in between. I have had lots of family fly on VS for the first time in the last year or so, ex both LHR & MAN and all of them have said how good VS were, how IFE was brilliant and how they would fly VS again without a second thought. I have also flown on the MAN/LGW fleet 6 times in the last year and the IFE worked perfectly on each flight.

Now BA fly to Vegas from LHR, maybe it will force VS to do something to keep people?

[Neil]

quote:Originally posted by locutus
Now BA fly to Vegas from LHR, maybe it will force VS to do something to keep people?


I'm not so sure. I still expect the load numbers to hold up well on the LGW route, even with more competition from BA. It is very popular, especially in the premium cabins and the only thing VS might do is move LAS to LHR to compete, but I'm not sure if that would make such a massive difference. I am certain however it won't push VS in to updating the LGW/MAN fleet.

[Nottingham Nick]

quote:Originally posted by mitchja
quote:Originally posted by Nottingham Nick


Whether this is a good decision in the long term, as more and more MCO / Vegas / Caribbean regulars turn their backs on VS - only time will tell.

Nick


I'm not sure that's actually true though. Is there any evidence of this? Are the LGW/MAN routes loosing more pax than LHR ones? In general, most of the culled routes do tend to be LHR routes.....

You have misunderstood what I am saying. I am talking about the number of regular passengers, who are no longer looking at Virgin being their automatic carrier of choice.

You only have to look on here, the Dibb, and other boards to see the number of people who have flown with Virgin many, many times and are now looking elsewhere.

I am not saying that the grass is any greener elsewhere, or that the defection of these people will adversely affect overall passenger numbers, but regular passengers will only put up with falling standards for so long.


Nick

I have travelled LGW to BGI 5 times now and can say on every flight there has been issues with IFE.

The crew have always been accommodating in trying to reduce hassle by either drink service, Air miles compensation or DVD sets and have never been that bothered by lack of IFE

But time and experience has taught me several key points

1. Take you iPhone/iTouch or Equiv
2. Good Book
3. Sleep[|)]
4. Bar before hand
5. Drinks on Board

And if your in UC, Who cares about Telly there's the On Board Bar and that dying art of conversation[^]

[mitchja]

quote:You only have to look on here, the Dibb, and other boards to see the number of people who have flown with Virgin many, many times and are now looking elsewhere

But that's still only going to be a very small percentage of the overall pax that fly every day.

I'm still not convinced VS are loosing pax just because of what is said on websites about IFE problems.

A regular passenger also doesn't have to be one that reads or takes part in online forums do they?

When it comes down to it though as we all know, saying it and doing it are often two very different things.

Regards

quote:Originally posted by Neil
quote:Originally posted by locutus
Now BA fly to Vegas from LHR, maybe it will force VS to do something to keep people?


I'm not so sure. I still expect the load numbers to hold up well on the LGW route, even with more competition from BA. It is very popular, especially in the premium cabins and the only thing VS might do is move LAS to LHR to compete, but I'm not sure if that would make such a massive difference. I am certain however it won't push VS in to updating the LGW/MAN fleet.


Well there have in the past been rumours of VS moving the LAS service to LHR (this was pre BA announcement). It certainly wont push VS into upgrading to V:Port ex LGW/MAN as after all, IIRC, BA still also don't have AVOD fleet wide.

quote:Originally posted by mitchja
But that's still only going to be a very small percentage of the overall pax that fly every day.

I'm still not convinced VS are loosing pax just because of what is said on websites about IFE problems.

A regular passenger also doesn't have to be one that reads or takes part in online forums do they?

When it comes down to it though as we all know, saying it and doing it are often two very different things.


I would tend to agree with you James. VS heavily rely on VH for the LGW routes, VH seem to be more in demand than ever (especially since they took over TCD), people are still using VH and as a result the planes ex LGW are nearly full.

Nick I do see your point but really ex LGW the only other choice is BA, who IMHO still have an inferior product at the front of the plane (and this will only further be increased when VS open the new CH).

Problems with IFE is also very subjective, we all well know that even if LGW/MAN got V:Port it would not mean an end to the problems.

Nick, as Pete, pointed out on the VS boards on Facebook, the issue with boards such as Dibb/Trip Advisor and other travel based rating sites is that people only write on them with a complaint. For every person throwing a hissy fit about poor IFE, there will be 10 that will sing the praises of it. Combine this with the fact that VH are dealing with more customers each year, it soon becomes apparent that those 'voting with their feet' will have little effect on VS.

[Nottingham Nick]

Interesting debate - the power of the internet or does it have any yet?

There are an awful lot more people read V-Flyer and the Dibb, et al than actually post on them.

Couple that with the office / pub / gym gossip of 'I have heard x brand has really gone downhill recently' and a LOT of opinions are formed / swayed by the internet - which considering the source information is not always right in the first place, is a dangerous concept.

I don't know about anyone else, but a lot of people I know are aware of my passion for flying and I am frequently asked which is the best airline to fly to Florida - I am sure a lot of V-Flyers are the same.

I fully accept that the majority of pax to MCO and the Caribbean won't be frequent fliers, but more and more people are using the net as a research tool and seeing the VS - LGW brand slagged of on bulletin boards - rightly or wrongly - I believe may hit Virgin in the long term.

Nick

[mitchja]

It's also all about making an informed decision yourself. This where the internet falls down somewhat.

All well and good reading a report about something (either how good or bad it might be) but until you actually go and try it for yourself, you won't know for sure.

Regards

[Nottingham Nick]

quote:Originally posted by mitchja
All well and good reading a report about something (either how good or bad it might be) but until you actually go and try it for yourself, you won't know for sure.

Very true, but I know I have been put off hotels by bad reviews on tripadvisor and I am sure some people DO make decisions about airlines based on hearsay and internet rumour.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are scurrilous hotels that put bad reviews about rivals and plant overly glowing ones about their own place(s).

Nick

[Neil]

quote:Originally posted by Nottingham Nick
Very true, but I know I have been put off hotels by bad reviews on tripadvisor and I am sure some people DO make decisions about airlines based on hearsay and internet rumour.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are scurrilous hotels that put bad reviews about rivals and plant overly glowing ones about their own place(s).

Nick


Really good points there Nick. I never book a hotel with having a look on Trip Advisor and other review sites before hand, but I also know when a review is being fair or not, and quite often I only read UK travellers reviews, knowing the different nationalities have different expectations (like the American lady who gave a 5 star hotel a 1 star rating because it had a small lobby?!).

As with a lot of things in life, I think a lot of people seek advice and recommendations from people they know, who have been to similar places before hand. Like you, I get asked so much about airlines, flights, hotels and more often then not they take what I say as gospel and book based on my suggestions.

There is so much written on the internet, about everything, most of it contradicting itself, I honestly believe that people will believe what they want to, and no matter how much evidence there is to counter their POV, they will not be or don't want to be swayed. There have been a few occasions where the very thing happens on this site.

Basically, what I am trying to say is that whatever VS do, some people will like it, others will hate it, and for every person who is writing something bad, there will be one writing something positive. Ultimately, yes, VS will lose some regular customers for whatever reason, but they will equally pick up some more who have a different opinion and expectations.

I think the real issue is that VS are not keeping up with the other carriers and people are expecting more. Continental have pushed out Touchscreen VoD in Y (ahead of the J equipment), BA has the new Thales equipment coming next year and the various A380s are operating with cutting edge equipment. In comparison Odyssey and Nova looks bleak and I think the temperamental nature of the equipment inflames the situation.

That said - a lot of people carry laptops and netbooks, so maybe remove the IFE and put the money towards better food and newer seats!

Going back to the trip advisor thing; I have booked a hotel and then looked on trip advisor (wrong way round, I know) and have been a little worried about what to expect and hey ho, it has been a brilliant hotel.

I also tend to look on trip advisor after I have visited a new hotel now, and it is amazing how differently I can feel about a place compared with someone else.

[Scrooge]

VS are still flying with full planes, but how much is it costing them to get the people on the plane ?

Keeping a regular flyer on your planes costs you nothing outside of the regular operating costs.

Bringing new pax costs money, be it from advertising or lower fares.

In other words if you can fly a plane full of people at good yields and not advertise you will make money.

quote:Originally posted by jafleming
I think the real issue is that VS are not keeping up with the other carriers and people are expecting more. Continental have pushed out Touchscreen VoD in Y (ahead of the J equipment), BA has the new Thales equipment coming next year and the various A380s are operating with cutting edge equipment. In comparison Odyssey and Nova looks bleak and I think the temperamental nature of the equipment inflames the situation.


From a strictly rational point of view - and given the nature of the OP - wouldn't it be better for airlines to be aiming to make these systems more robust rather than ever more loaded with bells and whistles? I wonder, for example, about the potential breakdown rate of touchscreen VOD. I know the technology is now common in phones and other devices, but these screens are going to be subject to heavy use by people who have no 'ownership' of the object and therefore are likely not to be exercising the same care as they would with their own iPhone or whatever. Whatever the apparent sexiness of the technology, the IFE is going to be the lowest priority for overhaul and repair between flights. I don't suppose 'our technology breaks down less than our competitors' would make much of strap line for an advert though.

quote:Originally posted by Neil

Really good points there Nick. I never book a hotel with having a look on Trip Advisor and other review sites before hand, but I also know when a review is being fair or not, and quite often I only read UK travellers reviews, knowing the different nationalities have different expectations (like the American lady who gave a 5 star hotel a 1 star rating because it had a small lobby?!).


I also tend to temper my view of any new establishment in the light of re-read reviews of places I have been. And let's face it, some people just like to complain.

quote:Originally posted by Neil

As with a lot of things in life, I think a lot of people seek advice and recommendations from people they know, who have been to similar places before hand. Like you, I get asked so much about airlines, flights, hotels and more often then not they take what I say as gospel and book based on my suggestions.


I'm always a bit wary about giving recommendations as people's expectations differ so much. Recommend a hotel where you always get a suite, and they might end up with the room in the cellar that's only accessed by a ladder borrowed from the window cleaner. I will say, however, that the time I directly took Scrooge's recommendation on a hotel in Marbella it was spot on

Paul

[Scrooge]

Matt is really the person to talk to about the IFE systems.

As a whole, they are very robust, mostly because they are built around old proven technology, you would be amazed at what these systems are made from and how well they work, the vast majority of the inner working haven't been seen in desktops since before 2000.

quote:Originally posted by jafleming
I think the real issue is that VS are not keeping up with the other carriers and people are expecting more. Continental have pushed out Touchscreen VoD in Y (ahead of the J equipment), BA has the new Thales equipment coming next year and the various A380s are operating with cutting edge equipment. In comparison Odyssey and Nova looks bleak and I think the temperamental nature of the equipment inflames the situation.

That said - a lot of people carry laptops and netbooks, so maybe remove the IFE and put the money towards better food and newer seats!


Some good points there and the idea that in future really it's about providing power to people's personal devices ( [:0] ) is an interesting one.

What remains for me is that VS has always been about difference - because it's size demands differentiators. One of those differences over the years has been personal IFE for everyone, people still remember that and no wonder they're disappointed if it doesn't work, or it's tiny, scratchy and patchy. After all, people fly on EK sometimes too.

I've always maintained that VS skates on thin ice when talking about PE from MAN and shows LHR purple seats, talks up IFE as being AVOD when in many cases it isn't etc.

I also believe that in times of recession, it's the differentiators and the price that count. So I am firmly in the camp of putting AVOD on all planes - you know, the cost just might have a return?????

quote:Originally posted by slinky09

I've always maintained that VS skates on thin ice when talking about PE from MAN and shows LHR purple seats, talks up IFE as being AVOD when in many cases it isn't etc.

I also believe that in times of recession, it's the differentiators and the price that count. So I am firmly in the camp of putting AVOD on all planes - you know, the cost just might have a return?????


In all my years of flying with VS, it's always been out of Gatwick/Manchester (and very shortly Glasgow [:D]), so bar one occasion when the plane was substituted, I have only had Nova or Oddessy.

I can only remember once in umpteen sectors that we ever had a problem with IFE, so its looks like we've been pretty lucky.

I do agree with Slinky however, that the constant advertising of VPort - even on the boarding film on nova planes(ha ha look what you could have had), the constant announcements that 'sorry the handsets do NOT come out of the seats because this plane doesn't have games' and the purple seats that look like they will never appear on the Gatwick fleet get a bit weary.

I can see both sides of the arguement, especially being in business in the current climate, but, and there is a big but - you can only rely on peoples good nature for so long. When holidays become a luxury in times of recession, the customer expects everything to be perfect.

Gone are the days when problems could be explained away because the flight was cheap - now we know that the majority of some of the economy fares are tax and that technically the cost of the flight itself is still cheap but that doesn't wash with the average member of the public who now realises that he is paying much much more than last year after he books extra bags, flys over the weekend etc etc.

And then on top of that, there is still no games or the ife is broken and the 'new' seats are still the old ones.

I genuinely think that now is the time to be improving, not just to keep your customers, but to grab the new ones who have become disgruntled with 'another airline's' shoddy ife or extra costs.


David

People say the bar has been raised but has it really? It is only within the last 2-3 years that legacy carriers have started offering any sort of personal entertainment to passengers on long haul flights (and having experienced DL's in its first week, it isn't really that good), NZ has only just retrofitted its 767 and 320 fleet, BA still (like VS) does not have AVOD throughout its fleet, LH has only just started installing personal entertainment....yes thats right Europe's most successful airline has only just introduced personal IFE's to its fleet. A huge number of carriers still offer an IFE service akin to Odyssey or Nova and even more offer the old school big screens at the front. The issue is that travellers leaving the UK have in the main been 'spoilt' by IFE offerings. It is also worth noting that you cannot really compare VS to the EK's and EY's of this world, they have huge financial backing. However that does not mean we should not be given a decent service with regards to IFE.

The question of the LGW/MAN fleet comes up time and again, the issue for VS currently (money and economy aside) is that V:Port really is not that much better. Yes its AVOD but, as the TR's support, it constantly has its problems and really for a passenger down the back is not that well designed. I lost count of the number of times on my last flight that I turned the screen off only to wake five minutes later to find I must have brushed the switch when wriggling in my seat and the screen was back on, couple that with the fact that we had at least an hour and a half of technical difficulties and its clear V:Port is not all its cracked up to be. By way of contrast I have never experienced any problems with either Nova or Odyssey. So what Nova does not offer as much choice but that is down to individual interpretation, I have been on V:Port flights and equally there has been nothing on I wish to watch.

I think there are a couple of issues that need to be remembered though:
We have no indication where the newly ordered planes will end up being based. Therefore it seems a huge waste of money for VS to install AVOD into the LGW fleet if in three years time they have had a rejig and LGW is served by AVOD planes.
Slinky's point is valid, now is the time to spend the dosh on improving products. However it is unclear how much dosh VS actually have. BA seem to have taken a sucker punch with regards to the economy but there are also a lot of commentators who are raising concern over the way in which VS presented its accounts last year (stuff beyond me but apparently VS did not use the same method as BA)
I have noticed that VA are now using the same IFE as VX. Whilst I was sat eating my breakfast and thinking about this topic (yes I know its sad) it dawned on me that VS could introduce this system on the forthcoming planes from Airbus and Boeing. Even better than this, VS could introduce an updated version of the type that VA/VX are using. This has the added advantage of all bugs hopefully having been ironed out, as VS will have access to the data from VA/VX.
The VA/VX system also pushes the boundaries of current IFE, with the on demand ordering of drinks function etc
There is still confusion over the future of the 744 fleet as well, its a grave waste of money to upgrade something you could get rid of in 2 years time. I also think there is uncertainty at VS over what they will do with the 744's in the long, long term future.

So it could be that VS think it wise to wait and evaluate the VX/VA Red System as well as save a bit of money. I would tend to agree with Scrooge, if you are still filling the plane up then the phrase 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' springs to mind. Any business would be plain mad (excuse the pun) in a time of economic uncertainty to wastefully spend money when you are still guaranteed bums on seats across the classes.

quote:Originally posted by willd
People say the bar has been raised but has it really? It is only within the last 2-3 years that legacy carriers have started offering any sort of personal entertainment to passengers on long haul flights (and having experienced DL's in its first week, it isn't really that good), NZ has only just retrofitted its 767 and 320 fleet, BA still (like VS) does not have AVOD throughout its fleet, LH has only just started installing personal entertainment....yes thats right Europe's most successful airline has only just introduced personal IFE's to its fleet. A huge number of carriers still offer an IFE service akin to Odyssey or Nova and even more offer the old school big screens at the front. The issue is that travellers leaving the UK have in the main been 'spoilt' by IFE offerings. It is also worth noting that you cannot really compare VS to the EK's and EY's of this world, they have huge financial backing. However that does not mean we should not be given a decent service with regards to IFE.

The question of the LGW/MAN fleet comes up time and again, the issue for VS currently (money and economy aside) is that V:Port really is not that much better. Yes its AVOD but, as the TR's support, it constantly has its problems and really for a passenger down the back is not that well designed. I lost count of the number of times on my last flight that I turned the screen off only to wake five minutes later to find I must have brushed the switch when wriggling in my seat and the screen was back on, couple that with the fact that we had at least an hour and a half of technical difficulties and its clear V:Port is not all its cracked up to be. By way of contrast I have never experienced any problems with either Nova or Odyssey. So what Nova does not offer as much choice but that is down to individual interpretation, I have been on V:Port flights and equally there has been nothing on I wish to watch.



I don't really have any issues with VPort, as I have said, we have only experienced it once, and that was on a night flight. As we have never really had any problems with nova either, its not really been a problem.

For me the issues are the constant 'rolling out across the fleet' nonsence that keeps getting spouted. The advertising in brochures of games, which granted has been removed now, the advertising of the new P/E seats, which is still going on and the in flight advertising of VPort on LGW planes.

Apart from the suites, VS must assume their fleet consists of LHR planes.

I would defend VS to the end, but along with the 'look what planes we have bought now' only to delay them again and again, its starting to get a little weary.

David

As someone who has visited the Orlando area almost every year for the last 13 I'd like to throw my comments into the debate on the tourist runs. I am a cattle class passenger - no premium or upper for me. When I started flying on this route, VA were superb, a cut above the rest. The service was top class and the whole flying experience made you want to use them again. The problem these days is that everyone else has caught up and even surpassed the offering on the LGW - MCO or even LGW - SFD routes. I am flying VA again this year primarily as a mate of mine works for VA and I got a mates rate fare. In recent years I have preferred the BA flights out of LGW. I find the 777's they use to be cleaner, more comfortable and have never experienced and IFE problems with them unlike recent trips with VA.

If it wasn't for the inflexibility of the schedules (my trips don't always fit into 7 or 14 day chunks) I would be tempted to use the charter flights to SFD in future. Yes, there are the arguments about luggage allownaces (although VA are doing their best to negate this), other in flight charges and fleet backup but generally the charters now offer better legroom, comparable if not better IFE.

I've always been a fan of VA but feel that they have got complacent over their LGW routes.