quote:Originally posted by ukcobra
Not entirely sure that a pat down of a child is that acceptable to me as a parent.
I fly on Jan 10th to the US on Continental. I will post a TR on here as soon as I can.
Mark
The naked scanners were deemed unacceptable for children, and I can see why a parent wouldn't want a pat down of a child, and I doubt many BAA employees would want to either, but what are the alternatives for children? What would you as a parent be happy with, considering a terrorist could use a child to carry something?
What exactly is the situation with electronics? So far I have that iPhones/iPod Touches should be checked, but how about other phones and laptops? Do their batteries get removed, can they be used in-flight?
There is no way in heck I am putting a laptop into checked baggage, but I *have* to have a laptop to work in the USA...
There is no way in heck I am putting a laptop into checked baggage, but I *have* to have a laptop to work in the USA...
quote:Originally posted by mattj
What exactly is the situation with electronics?
At the moment, nobody really knows for sure. VS (and other airlines) aren't providing clear information about what you are allowed or not allowed to carry [n]
Regards
What exactly is the situation with electronics?
At the moment, nobody really knows for sure. VS (and other airlines) aren't providing clear information about what you are allowed or not allowed to carry [n]
Regards
Regards
James Mitchell
James Mitchell
I somehow have not found out about the attempted events on the NW/DL flight until today. I would pretty much echo all the views raised so far.
It seems likely an uterley ridiculous knee jerk reaction by the US authorities and clearly misses the point that the young man in question was a) on a US government watch list, b) had been reported to the US Embassy in Nigeria by his own father due to his extremist views and c) had been refused a UK visa for whatever reason. Really the measures being implemented should be to ensure that various departments within the US government talk to each and that secondly the UK and US speak to each other. However I guess these increased measures are the price we have to pay.
Certainly it does make me less likely to travel to the US next year. Increased security checks post 9/11 were ok (after all I always felt US airport security was way too lax), fingerprinting of every finger I could take but being told to remain in your seat for the final hour of a flight is the final biscuit. What makes the US authorities believe that the would be terrorist would not as a result blow the plane up 2 hours away from the US rather than an hour, ok granted no- one on the ground would be injured, but if you are fanatical then surely it would not matter?
In the day of the war on terror, would one also not expect the UK/French/Australian et al all to follow the US lead and start to ban walking around the cabin in the last hour? The fact that no other country has followed suit surely highlights how much of a knee jerk reaction these measures are.
I guess its pretty much a waiting game to see what unfolds. I do feel sorry for the poor old crew, and dare I say it, BAA staff who have to help implement these decisions.
And btw I am sorry but if I plan to blow up a plane am I really going to communicate with my buddy via in seat text messaging? Please!
It seems likely an uterley ridiculous knee jerk reaction by the US authorities and clearly misses the point that the young man in question was a) on a US government watch list, b) had been reported to the US Embassy in Nigeria by his own father due to his extremist views and c) had been refused a UK visa for whatever reason. Really the measures being implemented should be to ensure that various departments within the US government talk to each and that secondly the UK and US speak to each other. However I guess these increased measures are the price we have to pay.
Certainly it does make me less likely to travel to the US next year. Increased security checks post 9/11 were ok (after all I always felt US airport security was way too lax), fingerprinting of every finger I could take but being told to remain in your seat for the final hour of a flight is the final biscuit. What makes the US authorities believe that the would be terrorist would not as a result blow the plane up 2 hours away from the US rather than an hour, ok granted no- one on the ground would be injured, but if you are fanatical then surely it would not matter?
In the day of the war on terror, would one also not expect the UK/French/Australian et al all to follow the US lead and start to ban walking around the cabin in the last hour? The fact that no other country has followed suit surely highlights how much of a knee jerk reaction these measures are.
I guess its pretty much a waiting game to see what unfolds. I do feel sorry for the poor old crew, and dare I say it, BAA staff who have to help implement these decisions.
And btw I am sorry but if I plan to blow up a plane am I really going to communicate with my buddy via in seat text messaging? Please!
Great ! I am flying to MCO on Friday ,my 4th trip this year, but the first on my own. I was looking forward to travelling light and just taking hand luggage. I guess thats out of the window now so I will have to use the twilight check in as i want to get my favourite seat at the bulkhead (75K)which means two trips to LGW (lucky we are only 45 mins away)either that or upgrade to UC (have enough miles but was happy to do the day leg of my journey PE). just concerned about the battery thingy - i am happy to pack my MP4 in check in but no way am i letting go of my laptop or phone. Does anyone know if they are ACTUALLY taking the bateries away until landing -the message seems a bit confused.
seems like what was going to be a nice relaxed trip has just gone belly up !!!
seems like what was going to be a nice relaxed trip has just gone belly up !!!
So I think this has been asked, but with no answer. I have a MacBook Pro which I carry as hand luggage. You may be aware that the new MBP have a battery that cannot be removed without the removal of around 12 various length case screws. So what happens here?
The more I think about this the more annoyed I get about the fact that it is a joke!
If the concern is fire, I am sure some of the spirits on board are pretty flammable. Removing electronics is not going to stop anyone with intent smuggling on board flammable and/or combustible liquids staying within the 100ml rule. It would surely not be difficulty to conceal a match and a striking board anywhere.
Anyone with intent could conceal enough to do damage in a bodily orifice that is never going to be subject to a pat search or show up on metal detectors.
This is why profiling is key. And I read comments above from concerned parents about pat downs of children. I understand that but those seeking to inflict damage will looks for easy ins (which might well include children, elderly, injured etc) and use it.
Banning iPhones is just f^$(ng stupid! It really is - Is this a VS directive or HLS/FAA?
These really are sad times from air travel to the US.
Paul
The more I think about this the more annoyed I get about the fact that it is a joke!
If the concern is fire, I am sure some of the spirits on board are pretty flammable. Removing electronics is not going to stop anyone with intent smuggling on board flammable and/or combustible liquids staying within the 100ml rule. It would surely not be difficulty to conceal a match and a striking board anywhere.
Anyone with intent could conceal enough to do damage in a bodily orifice that is never going to be subject to a pat search or show up on metal detectors.
This is why profiling is key. And I read comments above from concerned parents about pat downs of children. I understand that but those seeking to inflict damage will looks for easy ins (which might well include children, elderly, injured etc) and use it.
Banning iPhones is just f^$(ng stupid! It really is - Is this a VS directive or HLS/FAA?
These really are sad times from air travel to the US.
Paul
Being devils advocate:
Surely discussing the finer details of what security is in place where is defeating any, although knee jerk, implementation of additional measures??
VS & others should be expecting a marked turn down in interest for 2010 flights, as people who have a choice, turn round and look elsewhere in the world....further amended sales fares??
Stuff starting to go missing from bags, under the guise of TSA checks, not insured, limited comeback and insurance firms having the ultimate get-out clause..
Surely discussing the finer details of what security is in place where is defeating any, although knee jerk, implementation of additional measures??
VS & others should be expecting a marked turn down in interest for 2010 flights, as people who have a choice, turn round and look elsewhere in the world....further amended sales fares??
Stuff starting to go missing from bags, under the guise of TSA checks, not insured, limited comeback and insurance firms having the ultimate get-out clause..
NH, Hobbit Land.
The directive seems to have been published/made available.
I cannot warrant that this is the actual directive (in view of the dissemination restrictions which may or may not be genuine... I would have to assume that if the publication was a matter of great concern to DHS, they would have taken action against the site)
Note:
Expiration : Dec 30th. (update before then..)
Electronics not banned - just their use in last hour.
TSA seem to be now objecting to the publication of this information which suggests it must have been the genuine article. I have therefore removed the link.
I cannot warrant that this is the actual directive (in view of the dissemination restrictions which may or may not be genuine... I would have to assume that if the publication was a matter of great concern to DHS, they would have taken action against the site)
Note:
Expiration : Dec 30th. (update before then..)
Electronics not banned - just their use in last hour.
TSA seem to be now objecting to the publication of this information which suggests it must have been the genuine article. I have therefore removed the link.
Thanks for that Bill, it makes very interesting reading.
My thoughts remain - ill conceived, badly worded and well over the top.
Nick
My thoughts remain - ill conceived, badly worded and well over the top.
Nick
Hopefully the 30th allows for a more sober review as the movers and shakers will be back in DC.
Thanks
Darren
Darren
quote:Originally posted by northernhenry
Being devils advocate:
Surely discussing the finer details of what security is in place where is defeating any, although knee jerk, implementation of additional measures??
I used to think the same, but to be honest, if we can think about this don't you think that pretty much anyone else can?
Part of any attack (in any situation, I don't just apply this airline travel) is reconnaissance (at least if it done correctly) - Repeat something enough times and the due diligence pays off.
Sorry, but it is a fact of life. Again it stresses the important of intelligence and profiling. It's not infallible but surely better than just banning electronics devices. So obviously a terrorist cell somewhere couldn't learn sign language, semaphore or even vocal communication.
My job at present is a security specialist; nothing to do with airline travel at all, but security principles follow through all walks. If I concentrated on what has attacked in the past I would get caught out time and time again. The best defense I have at present is actually a central database. 50% of my total security incidents are stopped simply by referring to this central database.
And I add my thanks to Bill for posting the directive.
Paul
Being devils advocate:
Surely discussing the finer details of what security is in place where is defeating any, although knee jerk, implementation of additional measures??
I used to think the same, but to be honest, if we can think about this don't you think that pretty much anyone else can?
Part of any attack (in any situation, I don't just apply this airline travel) is reconnaissance (at least if it done correctly) - Repeat something enough times and the due diligence pays off.
Sorry, but it is a fact of life. Again it stresses the important of intelligence and profiling. It's not infallible but surely better than just banning electronics devices. So obviously a terrorist cell somewhere couldn't learn sign language, semaphore or even vocal communication.
My job at present is a security specialist; nothing to do with airline travel at all, but security principles follow through all walks. If I concentrated on what has attacked in the past I would get caught out time and time again. The best defense I have at present is actually a central database. 50% of my total security incidents are stopped simply by referring to this central database.
And I add my thanks to Bill for posting the directive.
Paul
Thanks Bill for the link. I pray that come Dec 30th they will review these stupidly idiotic rules and concentrate instead on preventing the next attack with intelligence, thinking power (human and computer), smart profiling, effective security and guile - all seem to be missing.
Wherever I look, whether here, a.net or even the comments under Bill's link, the universal opinion is the same, the TSA has gone off for a walk in Alice in Wonderland.
quote:Originally posted by Decker
As a non parent can a parent explain to me what they fear with security personnel patting down their children?
As a non parent I will take a forthright guess - all non parents are potential abusers and therefore a quick 'touch' in the wrong area could result! I won't comment.
Wherever I look, whether here, a.net or even the comments under Bill's link, the universal opinion is the same, the TSA has gone off for a walk in Alice in Wonderland.
quote:Originally posted by Decker
As a non parent can a parent explain to me what they fear with security personnel patting down their children?
As a non parent I will take a forthright guess - all non parents are potential abusers and therefore a quick 'touch' in the wrong area could result! I won't comment.
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
Most parents are a little insane.
Incoming!
Seriously, there has been so much media hype over paedophiles that they are seen around every corner.
Anyone who goes near a child is a suspect.
And even worse we teach our children this!
Is this sane?
Are there more paedos. around now than when we were children - and when there was little or no media panic?
Did we all suffer constant attacks that have scarred us for life?
We now have a situation where children are afraid to be 'touched' by a nurse, a doctor or other health professional.
And we assume every numpty security guy must be a sex freak....Is this sane?
Security personnel do have checks - just like teachers and the many others who deal with children.
Parents are actually present during the security screening - what are you afraid of????
Is such a fear rational or irrational?
I now await the howls of protest.......
Incoming!
Seriously, there has been so much media hype over paedophiles that they are seen around every corner.
Anyone who goes near a child is a suspect.
And even worse we teach our children this!
Is this sane?
Are there more paedos. around now than when we were children - and when there was little or no media panic?
Did we all suffer constant attacks that have scarred us for life?
We now have a situation where children are afraid to be 'touched' by a nurse, a doctor or other health professional.
And we assume every numpty security guy must be a sex freak....Is this sane?
Security personnel do have checks - just like teachers and the many others who deal with children.
Parents are actually present during the security screening - what are you afraid of????
Is such a fear rational or irrational?
I now await the howls of protest.......
#732880 by Guest
28 Dec 2009, 19:59
28 Dec 2009, 19:59
quote:Originally posted by Bill S
I now await the howls of protest.......
Not from me - well said [y]
As children can and have been used as mules, I would expect they get a thorough pat down and screening in the same was as any other pax.
I now await the howls of protest.......
Not from me - well said [y]
As children can and have been used as mules, I would expect they get a thorough pat down and screening in the same was as any other pax.
Bill S,
Well said Sir, as a parent of three boys I have no issues with them being subjected to the same checks as everyone else.
This world is slowly going mad on all fronts, mainly led by the Media and over the top PC governments.
I am afraid time has come to use profiling on certain sections of society, it is the only way to help cut this type of threat. If certain sections of society dont like it, then sort out those in your community who are causing the problems yourself.
We hear all too often the cry that a section of society is being persecuted, wake up and start asking the question WHY and look close to home for the answers.
Rant over
Well said Sir, as a parent of three boys I have no issues with them being subjected to the same checks as everyone else.
This world is slowly going mad on all fronts, mainly led by the Media and over the top PC governments.
I am afraid time has come to use profiling on certain sections of society, it is the only way to help cut this type of threat. If certain sections of society dont like it, then sort out those in your community who are causing the problems yourself.
We hear all too often the cry that a section of society is being persecuted, wake up and start asking the question WHY and look close to home for the answers.
Rant over
No howls from me either Bill and as a parent I tend to agree with your comments. This whole PC things really annoys me. As I said you have to trust people in responsible positions.
Our eldset goes to an International school where they won't even sing Christmas carols FFS. As for a nativity play no chance.
Iain
Our eldset goes to an International school where they won't even sing Christmas carols FFS. As for a nativity play no chance.
Iain
To my mind us westerners are already being profiled by our enemies as suitable targets for extermination. If we can be singled out by them it works both ways we should be able to profile them in order to protect ourselves.
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