Involuntary downgrade

Was just wondering if you can be involuntarily downgraded because of over booking in a particular cabin if you have checked in online?

Thanks

quote:Originally posted by s1990
Was just wondering if you can be involuntarily downgraded because of over booking in a particular cabin if you have checked in online?

Thanks


Yep - you can

Well that would be annoying! So is there any rule for who they decide to downgrade? Is it based on the latest person/ people to check in?

Thanks

quote:Originally posted by s1990
Well that would be annoying! So is there any rule for who they decide to downgrade? Is it based on the latest person/ people to check in?

Thanks


I dont know but I would have it as a guess that the more senior you are in the FC system and the higher the fare code the more chance that you wont be downgraded/bumped. But I have seen it happen at the gate and indeed onboard (when someone was sat in my seat) - so I guess it matters not where you checkin.

It does happen, but one likes to assume that the involuntary downgrade is a pretty rare beast. Not so rare, of course, as the involuntary upgrade...

When I flew to NYC last October, on boarding there was a gentleman seated at the UC bar - he was being offered 30K miles + a seat on the next Virgin flight, or make his own arrangements. Prior to pushback the FSM was going round the UC cabin with the manifest approaching people who were travelling alone seeking volunteers for a downgrade to PE. He got no takers, so either the pax from the bar took the PE seat, or the later flight + the miles (or made his own arrangements).

Warning to VS: I suggest you don't do this to me, my husband still talks about the day security were called when my front row Rod Stewart seat at Earls Court went missing - security lost! [V]

I've been on about half a dozen flights into New York / Newark in the last year with over booked UC cabins and involuntary downgrades. Thankfully, not to me yet ...

How do you over book a cabin. Is it due to aircraft changes? Or just the reservation staffs incompetance?

And what kind of reward would be offered if you were made to downgrade? I for one would tell them exactly where to stick it unless it was more than worth my trouble to downgrade.

quote:Originally posted by hackneyguy
quote:Originally posted by s1990
Well that would be annoying! So is there any rule for who they decide to downgrade? Is it based on the latest person/ people to check in?

Thanks


I dont know but I would have it as a guess that the more senior you are in the FC system and the higher the fare code the more chance that you wont be downgraded/bumped. But I have seen it happen at the gate and indeed onboard (when someone was sat in my seat) - so I guess it matters not where you checkin.


When we arrived at check in for our flight to EWR last October half term (on a sales fare Z) the UC check in agent told us that the flight was overbooked but because we'd done OLCI we bought ourselves enough 'credit' to not be in the frame for downgrade / bumping i.e. OLCI didn't bring any guarantees but did give some small advantage that in our case was enough.

Paul

I was on an LGW to BGI flight when the aircraft went Tech shortly before take boarding and we had another aircraft with only about 14 UC and there were about 30 odd UC on the previous full flight... so loads of people were downgraded from UC to PE and PE to ECO... we were booked in PE and managed to keep our seats purely due to my fare code (according to the person on the gate). The pax who were downgraded were really unhappy... I felt for the crew, as there were some very upset UC pax feeling that they were roughing it in PE! LOL... good times.

[honey lamb]

quote:Originally posted by aspence7
How do you over book a cabin. Is it due to aircraft changes? Or just the reservation staffs incompetance?

All airlines routinely overbook since a surprising number of people do not turn up for the flight. If they are on flexible tickets they may well have changed their plans or else people miss the flight for various reasons. Revenue management take this into account when deciding how many seats to sell per flight. Generally it works out but occasionally falls apart when everyone turns up

quote:Originally posted by honey lamb
quote:Originally posted by aspence7
How do you over book a cabin. Is it due to aircraft changes? Or just the reservation staffs incompetance?

All airlines routinely overbook since a surprising number of people do not turn up for the flight.


As do hotels...

[Neil]

quote:Originally posted by aspence7
How do you over book a cabin. Is it due to aircraft changes? Or just the reservation staffs incompetance?

And what kind of reward would be offered if you were made to downgrade? I for one would tell them exactly where to stick it unless it was more than worth my trouble to downgrade.


Over booking is common practice in the airline industry, airlines know not all pax usually turn up, so they over book to ensure a full flight.

Involuntary downgrades/denied boarding are rare, as usually there are pax willing to take the compensation offered to either fly later or in a different cabin.

Have you thought about a membership to V-Flyer, btw? You seem to be fairly active on here now, and not only will your membership give you lots of extras, it will also go towards the costs of running the site[y]

quote:Originally posted by aspence7
How do you over book a cabin. Is it due to aircraft changes? Or just the reservation staffs incompetance?

And what kind of reward would be offered if you were made to downgrade? I for one would tell them exactly where to stick it unless it was more than worth my trouble to downgrade.


All airlines allow overbooking by a specific per cent margin - this is because, particularly in the higher classes, many people are on flexible fares and change plans late in the day.

I've checked in at T3 for flights that are 8 or 10 people overbooked in UC, but by the time of boarding the same number have moved their flights till later or a different day and things have evened out.

Sometimes, this doesn't happen. Frankly it's another reason I think VS has shot itself badly in the foot by converting the upper deck to half Y and this could become more frequent, which will compound the error even more.

As for rewards, if you are downgrading there are rules set by the EU I think in terms of monetary compensation including refunding of fare differences. VS normally adds a significant chunk of FC miles to that (but is hopelessly slow about remitting the refund) - typically 50k miles for a UC to PE bump.

quote:Originally posted by aspence7
How do you over book a cabin. Is it due to aircraft changes? Or just the reservation staffs incompetance?

Its my understanding that flights are routinely overbooked because airlines know that there will (almost) always be late cancellations and no-shows. Booking to capacity only would be sure to leave empty seats.

Indeed BA confirmed as much in an email to me when I was recently downgraded
quote:It is standard practice for airlines to book more passengers than there are seats on some busier flights. It allows for the fact that a lot of people pre-book and then dont turn up. By overbooking, we can avoid flying with empty seats which ultimately helps us keep down our fares.

We keep data on how many people do not turn up for their flights. From this we calculate how many seats we can overbook on each flight, and we usually get it right. I am afraid that there are occasionally times when more people arrive for their flight than we predicted.

FM

quote:Originally posted by Jacki
Warning to VS: I suggest you don't do this to me, my husband still talks about the day security were called when my front row Rod Stewart seat at Earls Court went missing - security lost! [V]


So says Jacki - aka Naomi Campbell [B)]

But I am exactly the same - might seem quiet and demure ( [:w]shut up you lot !) but when my dander rises the big guns are pulled out [:w]

quote:Originally posted by hackneyguy
[quote]but when my dander rises the big guns are pulled out [:w]


I came over all Carry On there for a moment [:I]

Certain Corporate contracts have a clause in them with a guarantee that they will not be downgraded, some also have a clause that they are guaranteed a (full fare J ) seat on any VS flight so if you get a flight with a lot of business flyers then this is where the downgrades happen. Perversely the people who book through their Travel Management Company have better protection than people who book direct on VS.com

So, theoretically, what would happen if nobody wanted to downgrade? Do you jut have to accept the downgrade and FC miles and like it, or is there room for negotiation?

Neil, Yes I have thought about joining, and yes I will be doing so. I'm just waiting for the free gift promotion offers to appear!

[Neil]

quote:Originally posted by aspence7
So, theoretically, what would happen if nobody wanted to downgrade? Do you jut have to accept the downgrade and FC miles and like it, or is there room for negotiation?

Neil, Yes I have thought about joining, and yes I will be doing so. I'm just waiting for the free gift promotion offers to appear!


That's where the 'involuntary' part comes in, and then if you aren't happy with their offer you have to take it up with them afterwards, the airport/on board crew only have certain limits/guidelines to work to, after that you need to take it up with SRB's office.

Excellent, you won't regret joining, especially with the move to the new site due very soon [y]

What is the free promotional gift?

[Neil]

quote:Originally posted by aspence7
What is the free promotional gift?


AFAIK there isn't a free promotional gift, well apart from 1 month free if you become a silver VF member. You do get lots of other benefits including Expert Flyer free search, discounted membership on Expert Flyer, access to the restricted forums, and of course, the knowledge that, as a regular and active user of the site, you are contributing to it's running costs [y][y]

Neil

[Scrooge]

quote:Originally posted by aspence7
What is the free promotional gift?


You get to buy me a beer [y] [:p]

An involuntary downgrade can get kind of tricky on a number of fronts.

You will receive miles as part of the compensation, however make sure they spell out how much cash you will get, normally it is the difference between what you paid and the fare paid in the cabin you are moved to.

However it has never really been explained clearly to me as to how they come up with this figure.

If you're in the CH on the 8th December i'll quite happily buy you a beer!

Ideally it should be the difference between what you paid, and the cost of the cheapest ticket at any point in the cabin you are downgraded to.

It's no use booking 11 months in advance only to find when you are downgraded you are only given the difference between your ticket, andthe cost of a non discounted ticket that would have been on sale a few days before you fly.

I assume that they have their butts covered legally, and the terms and conditions of sale outline these things?