Are they intentionally frustrating the very people who pay their wages?
There are a lot of empty seats on a lot of other carriers and it's very easy to lose loyal PAYING customers.
It's not only hurting BA but them-selves too. Most people are see-ing them as being very greedy in this finacial climate.
While you may not like or agree with the decision the union have taken, it's important to remember it's the 'Right to Strike' that prevents bosses doing whatever they want with their employees.
In the 1830's the simple act of joining a Union or a Friendly Society (of Agricultural Labourers) would have earnt you a one-way ticket to Australia and Trade Unions only became lawful in the UK in 1871 - very recent history.
In the 1830's the simple act of joining a Union or a Friendly Society (of Agricultural Labourers) would have earnt you a one-way ticket to Australia and Trade Unions only became lawful in the UK in 1871 - very recent history.
Thanks
Darren
Darren
quote:Originally posted by David
Quote from BBC
'Unite said that 78.77% of the 11,691 ballot papers issued were returned. Of those 80.7% (7,482) supported taking action with 1,789 voting against it. '
Interesting use of figures - 'Unite say 80.7% supported taking action',(technically true) but if you look at the figure 7,482 compared to the ballots issued 11,691, its only 63.9%, which is not quite so clear [:w]
David
But thats how ALL elections are reported. There is no trickery or manupulation of the data.
The result is Yes / No as a % of votes cast NOT papers sent out / eligible to vote.
78% is a very good turnout for an election.
Quote from BBC
'Unite said that 78.77% of the 11,691 ballot papers issued were returned. Of those 80.7% (7,482) supported taking action with 1,789 voting against it. '
Interesting use of figures - 'Unite say 80.7% supported taking action',(technically true) but if you look at the figure 7,482 compared to the ballots issued 11,691, its only 63.9%, which is not quite so clear [:w]
David
But thats how ALL elections are reported. There is no trickery or manupulation of the data.
The result is Yes / No as a % of votes cast NOT papers sent out / eligible to vote.
78% is a very good turnout for an election.
Huzzah for International Jet-setting !
The trade unions are single handedly recking the chances of this country ever recovering from the recession that we are currently experiencing!
It's not just with BA, but the recent closure of the Corus plant in Teeside too. What would the unions have us do? Continue to fund these economically non viable institutions just to keep a few people in work? They are losing money, end of. They are no longer profitable, so why continue to flog a dead horse? What good will it do in the long run. The companies are failing for a reason, and cannot afford to keep these people as employees or to pay them the wages, or give them the benifits that they are demanding!
I have personal experience seeing exactly what the workforce of Corus do, and let me tell you this, the amount of money that they werewasting employing people to sit on their backsides all day was huge! This is why they failed! There are Steel companies, and airlines around the world turning a nice profit because they are streamlined, and efficient!
It's not just with BA, but the recent closure of the Corus plant in Teeside too. What would the unions have us do? Continue to fund these economically non viable institutions just to keep a few people in work? They are losing money, end of. They are no longer profitable, so why continue to flog a dead horse? What good will it do in the long run. The companies are failing for a reason, and cannot afford to keep these people as employees or to pay them the wages, or give them the benifits that they are demanding!
I have personal experience seeing exactly what the workforce of Corus do, and let me tell you this, the amount of money that they werewasting employing people to sit on their backsides all day was huge! This is why they failed! There are Steel companies, and airlines around the world turning a nice profit because they are streamlined, and efficient!
quote:Originally posted by tontybear
But thats how ALL elections are reported. There is no trickery or manupulation of the data.
The result is Yes / No as a % of votes cast NOT papers sent out / eligible to vote.
78% is a very good turnout for an election.
Well said Tonty - let's consider that in the next general election all of you who think it fun to lambast the 'one eyed scotsman' will be voting in an election in which 60% of people will vote and of those 40% may probably vote for the dandy silver spooned fop, Cameron. So less than one in four of the electorate. But that probably won't mean you'll recall carping about Unite's vote!
But thats how ALL elections are reported. There is no trickery or manupulation of the data.
The result is Yes / No as a % of votes cast NOT papers sent out / eligible to vote.
78% is a very good turnout for an election.
Well said Tonty - let's consider that in the next general election all of you who think it fun to lambast the 'one eyed scotsman' will be voting in an election in which 60% of people will vote and of those 40% may probably vote for the dandy silver spooned fop, Cameron. So less than one in four of the electorate. But that probably won't mean you'll recall carping about Unite's vote!
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
Time to pull up the comfy chair and a bumper bucket of popcorn. This is going to get interesting.
CHOO-CHOO!!!
CHOO-CHOO!!!
Thanks
Darren
Darren
quote:Originally posted by eejp1007
Grrr, can't get to that, can anyone give me a sitrep?
Thanks - Ed
Sorry!
Will try to paraphrase to keep Mod.s happy
bullying or intimidation toward crew will not be tolerated, just as we will not tolerate it toward our volunteers.
Unite has not as yet identified any specific dates for IA, though it must do so by March 15 and any action must start by March 22.
continue to have talks with Unite and we want to resolve the issues
There seems to be a view in some quarters that, if it had not been for the strike vote, we would not have been taking part in these talks.
Nothing could be further from the truth. We have been talking to Unite for more than 12 months. If progress has been slow, that has been a consequence of the unions unwillingness, or inability, to engage in the process seriously.
In the last 2.5 weeks of talks at the TUC, we have been able to sit down face to face with Unite for no more than 2.5 hours because the unions internal disagreements have left it unable to maintain a common position.
Changes imposed have been judged fair and reasonable
Unite has repeatedly demanded that we reverset changes to crew complements on flights from Heathrow. These changes - which the High Court has ruled were valid, reasonable and did not breach crews contracts save our company around 60m a year. They have not reduced crew earnings at all.
At TUC, Unite has again proposed reversing the changes and finding 60m savings from elsewhere. They have not been clear on how these savings would be achieved. .. equivalent savings would cut basic pay and/or allowances for every crew member by around 1,500 to 2,500 a year
Unite knows this. It just doesnt want to say so. More than 12 months after we started negotiations, it is still not serious about how we can reduce cabin crew costs to help make this airline competitive and ensure our long-term future.
On routes to Australia, for example, our cabin crew costs before the complement changes were 31 per cent higher than those of Qantas. Asia will be a massive growth market in the future. We are shutting ourselves out of Asia because our costs are too high.
So let me be clear. The changes we have made to onboard crew numbers are permanent. They will not be reversed by the threat of a strike. And they will not be reversed if a strike takes place.
Unite invited last October to come up with ideas as to how we recruit new crew in the future. BA want to have a discussion about that, but we are not moving current crew on to new terms and conditions.
So let me be clear again. If Unite proceeds to strike dates and then an actual strike, it will not soften our position. In fact, it will harden our position because we will be forced to seek additional savings to recoup the losses a strike will cause. And crew who take part in a strike, consciously inflicting damage on our business, will permanently lose eligibility for staff travel.
A strike will not ground this airline
But let there be no doubt. A strike will not ground this airline. We will have 1,000 volunteer crew trained by next week and we will continue training crew through the rest of this month and, if necessary, April and May. We have had nearly 6,000 volunteers in total, and the number is growing.
We will operate all British Airways flights from London City airport, including long-haul services to New York.
Seventy per cent of our Gatwick cabin crew have said they will work normally, so we will operate all our long-haul schedule at Gatwick, and about half of our short-haul schedule.
At Heathrow, we will operate a substantial proportion of our long-haul programme and a good number of short-haul flights too, assisted by chartered aircraft with crews from a number of UK and European-based airlines. We have at least 23 aircraft available to us over an extended period.
We have also arranged to secure seats from other carriers, so thousands more of our customers can reach their chosen destinations.
At this stage our plans do not include crew at Heathrow who may choose to work normally. More than 4,000 crew did not vote for strike action.
Fantastic response from around the company
I want to pay the sincerest thanks to thousands of colleagues across our airline ..
..plans will allow us to protect our customers travel arrangements better than many people imagined possible in the difficult conditions that a strike by the biggest section of our workforce is bound to cause.
Plans to protect our customers
Our customers have been fantastic in the way they have stood by us in recent weeks. Despite all the uncertainty Unite has created since it announced its ballot in January, passenger numbers for February were actually higher than a year ago and our premium traffic rose for the first time in 18 months.
We want to help customers as much as we possibly can. Should a strike be called, we will offer rebook and refund opportunities but every day we will transport tens of thousands of our customers to where they want to go.
I do not know what Unite will do .. If a strike comes, we are as prepared as we can be. I do not want a strike. The changes to crew complements are permanent, but it is not too late to talk about crews genuine concerns for the future.
It is time to move on. As a business, we must get our costs in shape so we can compete and grow in years ahead. That is the best way forward for everyone within British Airways. Let us embrace the future together and succeed.
Grrr, can't get to that, can anyone give me a sitrep?
Thanks - Ed
Sorry!
Will try to paraphrase to keep Mod.s happy
bullying or intimidation toward crew will not be tolerated, just as we will not tolerate it toward our volunteers.
Unite has not as yet identified any specific dates for IA, though it must do so by March 15 and any action must start by March 22.
continue to have talks with Unite and we want to resolve the issues
There seems to be a view in some quarters that, if it had not been for the strike vote, we would not have been taking part in these talks.
Nothing could be further from the truth. We have been talking to Unite for more than 12 months. If progress has been slow, that has been a consequence of the unions unwillingness, or inability, to engage in the process seriously.
In the last 2.5 weeks of talks at the TUC, we have been able to sit down face to face with Unite for no more than 2.5 hours because the unions internal disagreements have left it unable to maintain a common position.
Changes imposed have been judged fair and reasonable
Unite has repeatedly demanded that we reverset changes to crew complements on flights from Heathrow. These changes - which the High Court has ruled were valid, reasonable and did not breach crews contracts save our company around 60m a year. They have not reduced crew earnings at all.
At TUC, Unite has again proposed reversing the changes and finding 60m savings from elsewhere. They have not been clear on how these savings would be achieved. .. equivalent savings would cut basic pay and/or allowances for every crew member by around 1,500 to 2,500 a year
Unite knows this. It just doesnt want to say so. More than 12 months after we started negotiations, it is still not serious about how we can reduce cabin crew costs to help make this airline competitive and ensure our long-term future.
On routes to Australia, for example, our cabin crew costs before the complement changes were 31 per cent higher than those of Qantas. Asia will be a massive growth market in the future. We are shutting ourselves out of Asia because our costs are too high.
So let me be clear. The changes we have made to onboard crew numbers are permanent. They will not be reversed by the threat of a strike. And they will not be reversed if a strike takes place.
Unite invited last October to come up with ideas as to how we recruit new crew in the future. BA want to have a discussion about that, but we are not moving current crew on to new terms and conditions.
So let me be clear again. If Unite proceeds to strike dates and then an actual strike, it will not soften our position. In fact, it will harden our position because we will be forced to seek additional savings to recoup the losses a strike will cause. And crew who take part in a strike, consciously inflicting damage on our business, will permanently lose eligibility for staff travel.
A strike will not ground this airline
But let there be no doubt. A strike will not ground this airline. We will have 1,000 volunteer crew trained by next week and we will continue training crew through the rest of this month and, if necessary, April and May. We have had nearly 6,000 volunteers in total, and the number is growing.
We will operate all British Airways flights from London City airport, including long-haul services to New York.
Seventy per cent of our Gatwick cabin crew have said they will work normally, so we will operate all our long-haul schedule at Gatwick, and about half of our short-haul schedule.
At Heathrow, we will operate a substantial proportion of our long-haul programme and a good number of short-haul flights too, assisted by chartered aircraft with crews from a number of UK and European-based airlines. We have at least 23 aircraft available to us over an extended period.
We have also arranged to secure seats from other carriers, so thousands more of our customers can reach their chosen destinations.
At this stage our plans do not include crew at Heathrow who may choose to work normally. More than 4,000 crew did not vote for strike action.
Fantastic response from around the company
I want to pay the sincerest thanks to thousands of colleagues across our airline ..
..plans will allow us to protect our customers travel arrangements better than many people imagined possible in the difficult conditions that a strike by the biggest section of our workforce is bound to cause.
Plans to protect our customers
Our customers have been fantastic in the way they have stood by us in recent weeks. Despite all the uncertainty Unite has created since it announced its ballot in January, passenger numbers for February were actually higher than a year ago and our premium traffic rose for the first time in 18 months.
We want to help customers as much as we possibly can. Should a strike be called, we will offer rebook and refund opportunities but every day we will transport tens of thousands of our customers to where they want to go.
I do not know what Unite will do .. If a strike comes, we are as prepared as we can be. I do not want a strike. The changes to crew complements are permanent, but it is not too late to talk about crews genuine concerns for the future.
It is time to move on. As a business, we must get our costs in shape so we can compete and grow in years ahead. That is the best way forward for everyone within British Airways. Let us embrace the future together and succeed.
OK, so we will get a yes or no on strike within 2 weeks, that's great, too much uncertainty is really hitting us too as well as BA.
They are basically going to break the strike and plans are so far along it looks like they can keep most things moving (come on NRT!). Any person who strikes loses staff travel. I think this is well needed.
They are basically going to break the strike and plans are so far along it looks like they can keep most things moving (come on NRT!). Any person who strikes loses staff travel. I think this is well needed.
Move to the red side...
More War of Words from BASSA me thinks.
Just seen a bit on the ITV news where Unite are effectively saying the safety training given to the volunteers is inadequate (without actually saying it..) even though the CAA have approved the course.
Just seen a bit on the ITV news where Unite are effectively saying the safety training given to the volunteers is inadequate (without actually saying it..) even though the CAA have approved the course.
Thanks
Darren
Darren
For those registered on PPRuNe, the CC discussionis a real eye-opener.
Interesting that as we get closer to BASSA calling a strike, the shareprice goes up.
Interesting that as we get closer to BASSA calling a strike, the shareprice goes up.
Unlike you Bill I am very strong proponent of trades unionism.
That said, if what I read about the role, positioning and tactics of BASSA / Unite are true, they really should hang their heads in shame. They're an embarrassment to sensible, hard headed and fair trade unionists, blinkered, hierarchical, and all sorts of things ...
Through this all, BA will shaft their staff, no doubt about that, with no sensible voice to look after their concerns. BASSA's ability to place BA in the position of the best protector of it's staff and their rights is just amazing!
That said, if what I read about the role, positioning and tactics of BASSA / Unite are true, they really should hang their heads in shame. They're an embarrassment to sensible, hard headed and fair trade unionists, blinkered, hierarchical, and all sorts of things ...
Through this all, BA will shaft their staff, no doubt about that, with no sensible voice to look after their concerns. BASSA's ability to place BA in the position of the best protector of it's staff and their rights is just amazing!
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
Slinky, I spent many years as an active trade unionist. I believe it is an utterly essential component in all business.
That said, the antics of a few can cause great damage to the cause. It simply plays into the hands of less competent management.
I have watched this train-wreck with horror and now can only hope that a responsible Union can reform that will truly represent all its members.
The problems at BA also have an effect upon VS - all too often we see them treating their staff in ways that certainly would not occur with strong Union representation. This does not help anyone - including us the customers! We are very much on the receiving end when staff/management relations start to fail. We see it as inconsistent service - but that is a natural result of lack of job satisfaction.
We may get short-term financial gains with cheaper tickets but a successful business requires all sides to work together as a team. The BA troubles do help VS financially - but do they help VS' long-term future?
It seems that it is an industry wide problem but until it is solved, we will continue to see a decline in service on UK & US airlines compared to others.
That said, the antics of a few can cause great damage to the cause. It simply plays into the hands of less competent management.
I have watched this train-wreck with horror and now can only hope that a responsible Union can reform that will truly represent all its members.
The problems at BA also have an effect upon VS - all too often we see them treating their staff in ways that certainly would not occur with strong Union representation. This does not help anyone - including us the customers! We are very much on the receiving end when staff/management relations start to fail. We see it as inconsistent service - but that is a natural result of lack of job satisfaction.
We may get short-term financial gains with cheaper tickets but a successful business requires all sides to work together as a team. The BA troubles do help VS financially - but do they help VS' long-term future?
It seems that it is an industry wide problem but until it is solved, we will continue to see a decline in service on UK & US airlines compared to others.
quote:Originally posted by Bill S
Slinky, I spent many years as an active trade unionist. I believe it is an utterly essential component in all business.
That said, the antics of a few can cause great damage to the cause. It simply plays into the hands of less competent management.
I have watched this train-wreck with horror and now can only hope that a responsible Union can reform that will truly represent all its members.
The problems at BA also have an effect upon VS - all too often we see them treating their staff in ways that certainly would not occur with strong Union representation. This does not help anyone - including us the customers! We are very much on the receiving end when staff/management relations start to fail. We see it as inconsistent service - but that is a natural result of lack of job satisfaction.
We may get short-term financial gains with cheaper tickets but a successful business requires all sides to work together as a team. The BA troubles do help VS financially - but do they help VS' long-term future?
It seems that it is an industry wide problem but until it is solved, we will continue to see a decline in service on UK & US airlines compared to others.
I couldn't agree more ...
Slinky, I spent many years as an active trade unionist. I believe it is an utterly essential component in all business.
That said, the antics of a few can cause great damage to the cause. It simply plays into the hands of less competent management.
I have watched this train-wreck with horror and now can only hope that a responsible Union can reform that will truly represent all its members.
The problems at BA also have an effect upon VS - all too often we see them treating their staff in ways that certainly would not occur with strong Union representation. This does not help anyone - including us the customers! We are very much on the receiving end when staff/management relations start to fail. We see it as inconsistent service - but that is a natural result of lack of job satisfaction.
We may get short-term financial gains with cheaper tickets but a successful business requires all sides to work together as a team. The BA troubles do help VS financially - but do they help VS' long-term future?
It seems that it is an industry wide problem but until it is solved, we will continue to see a decline in service on UK & US airlines compared to others.
I couldn't agree more ...
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
Again Unite announce a press conference.
11am today.
Will they finally have something to say?
Rumoured that 7 out of 10 BASSA negotiators have gone sick with stress
11am today.
Will they finally have something to say?
Rumoured that 7 out of 10 BASSA negotiators have gone sick with stress
Well looks like the strike will be announced at 11
BASSA are stuffed now they can't do anything else. Their PR last night was crazy saying that the difference of their offer to BA's was just £10m and then went on to bring up the BA employee being trained for CC now being charged with Terrorism
BA just wanted to reduce crew numbers and no decision had been made on new fleet. BASSA have negotiated to accept some crew reductions, give all crew a pay cut that is really just a 3 year loan to BA as they want the money back in 3 years and introduction of new fleet.
Poor sods at LGW were sold out by BASSA to have to take a pay cut when their working practises weren’t even going to change.
It will be very interesting to see what happens here with how many crew will strike, the loss of travel privileges for life is huge. I am sure WW will have no problems at all replacing crew if he wants many people will jump from other airlines even for new fleet.
Stay strong BA kick UNITE and BASSA in to this century.
On a personal note lets hope this is over by the end of April as I have to miles tickets to LAX for Dreamflight IM
BASSA are stuffed now they can't do anything else. Their PR last night was crazy saying that the difference of their offer to BA's was just £10m and then went on to bring up the BA employee being trained for CC now being charged with Terrorism
BA just wanted to reduce crew numbers and no decision had been made on new fleet. BASSA have negotiated to accept some crew reductions, give all crew a pay cut that is really just a 3 year loan to BA as they want the money back in 3 years and introduction of new fleet.
Poor sods at LGW were sold out by BASSA to have to take a pay cut when their working practises weren’t even going to change.
It will be very interesting to see what happens here with how many crew will strike, the loss of travel privileges for life is huge. I am sure WW will have no problems at all replacing crew if he wants many people will jump from other airlines even for new fleet.
Stay strong BA kick UNITE and BASSA in to this century.
On a personal note lets hope this is over by the end of April as I have to miles tickets to LAX for Dreamflight IM
Bill S wrote:Rumoured that 7 out of 10 BASSA negotiators have gone sick with stress
Probably to embarrassed to face the public and their members. What a shambles, I do feel very sorry for decent crew stuck between BA management, their union, and the powerful voices of senior cabin crew who stood to lose most and have been largely to blame for driving this all into the ground!
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
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