I think our politicians are showing their true colours

[Neil]

Get used to it guys. If we had the PR system which the libs want (%age of total votes determines number of seats in parliament) it is difficult to see how we could avoid this shambles at every election.

Exactly the reason why PR won't work in our country.

Looks like the Libs have realised it isn't going to work with Labour and are back in formal meetings with the Tories as I type, we might have a new PM by the end of the day!

[Pete]

With regard to PR, this is old - but quite funny and informative too. Obviously skewed toward the Liberal opinion, but worth a watch nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSUKMa1cYHk

I wonder what the odds are that whatever deal is done by whomever cannot actually be delivered because the membership of the various parties doesn't want to play.

Conservative minority government anyone? Another election in the summer?

[Neil]

Conservative minority government anyone? Another election in the summer?

The parties can't afford another election, well apart from the Tories, so I imagine that is part of the reason the Libs want to form a strong coalition so we have a 4 or so year government.

The biggest argument against PR always seems to be that it delivers weak coalition governments. Obviously the last few days has been a shambles but that's more down to our relative inexperience with coalitions and especially the natural inflexibility built into political parties that have a natural 'all or nothing' approach to policies.
However what I cannot understand is how anyone can support a political system which is so obviously unfair and could easily deliver less representation to a party with more votes - indeed it is possible that the party with the most votes could end up third in number of seats - if thats democracy you can keep it. There are ways to provide strong governments with a form of PR - maybe not pure PR but there are ways. Certainly you could skew the allocation of seats so that (for example) a party recieving 40% of the vote recieves 50% of the seats. But the main thing is that the representaion is there.

Its all very well talking about the mess we're in but this sort of debate is good and indeed right when we are suggesting that a party that recieved the support of only 36% of 65% of the voting poulation is trying to get a mandate to govern the country. It takes me longer than this to plan a flight. I think everyone is aware of the time pressures here but it is important to get something that works for both / all parties. Yes there is of course some self-interest here but seriously why shouldn't there be. When I go into a shop I dont ask - how much do you want me to pay - so why should either party do the same. They have a duty to their MPs and members that may have to stomach (and vote for) unsavoury policies against their ideal for some time to come.

P.S. How about a Con-Lab pact - it would certainly be stable and would unite the two strongest parties?

FM

Its all very well talking about the mess we're in but this sort of debate is good and indeed right when we are suggesting that a party that recieved the support of only 36% of 65% of the voting poulation is trying to get a mandate to govern the country.

P.S. How about a Con-Lab pact - it would certainly be stable and would unite the two strongest parties?

The problem with this mess is that the country can ill afford it. I too have been a lifelong Labour supporter, but at this point I will support any party that firmly gets to grip with the financial woes that we have - despite the fact that under one it will be harsher.

I'll be interested to see if Clegg and Cameron do find a way to agree. Cameron isn't offering a referendum on proportional voting, and if Clegg accepts that is he chasing stardom at the expense of his party's history and core belief? Roll on the rerun election ...

Another perspective on this mess, we have one party claiming a mandate to govern on just 23.5% of the available vote ...

As to a Lab-Con pact ... I know plenty of Tories who would spit blood at the prospect of working with Mandelson.

I know plenty of Tories who would spit blood at the prospect of working with Mandelson.

Preferably Mandelson's....

According to the BBC, it looks as if Brown is starting to move out of No. 10. My mood has just improved drastically!

[Bazz]

Black bags being loaded into vehicles behind Number 10, although it is claimed they are not the Brown's - Alastair Darling's maybe?

Cameron has just come out of the talks and got into his car and driven off without a word to the press.

Black bags being loaded into vehicles behind Number 10, although it is claimed they are not the Brown's - Alastair Darling's maybe?

Apparently, nothing to do with Brown/Darling...police property.(there must be a joke there somewhere!)

Another perspective on this mess, we have one party claiming a mandate to govern on just 23.5% of the available vote ...

Ah, but the Malcolm Tuckers of this world have been firm in getting the Conservatives on message....they won in England...well, in terms of seats anyhow. That was the drum being beaten across the Radio 4 airwaves today.

I don't really understand why there is all this talk of the AV system - it can be worse than FPTP in terms of proportionality - according to the BBC graphs (can't find the link just now) it would have given labour a bigger majority in the 2005 election (I suppose that is why labour like it)...

Crispin

Black bags being loaded into vehicles behind Number 10, although it is claimed they are not the Brown's - Alastair Darling's maybe?

Apparently, nothing to do with Brown/Darling...police property.(there must be a joke there somewhere!)

Perhaps they contain the hastily shredded evidence of a decade's worth of Mandelson and Campbells' evil deeds? You know, they're probably preparing Brown's cyanide pill as we speak...

Perhaps they contain the hastily shredded evidence of a decade's worth of Mandelson and Campbells' evil deeds? You know, they're probably preparing Brown's cyanide pill as we speak...

I don't think they're preparing cyanide, more like trussing him up to be the sacrificial lamb (not that he has much left to offer having tendered his resignation already). I almost feel sorry for Gordon.
If this can be resolved this evening it will be a good thing.It's gone on way too long already at great cost to the country.

Sky News say he'll quit as PM tonight.

All this talk of the last few days being a shambles makes me laugh.

The media, feeding itself, is talking up a shambles. What I see is negotiations wihout the media being involved, and oh don't they hate it! Still if the Tories do make it we can look forward to Murdoch being given a much freer reign.

As for the LibDems looking out for a deal for themselves: er... Why on earth wouldn't they?

All this talk of the last few days being a shambles makes me laugh.

Have to agree, and there is a certain section of the press - tabloid, titles begin with "Daily" but not "Mirror" or "Worker", tendency to have been on the wrong side in the 1930s - who seem to be intent on stamping their tiny little feet and shouting "not fair!" because their choice of party failed to command a majority.

Anyway, I'd like to open a book on which one first has either the headline "House Price Surge on Cameron Taking Office" or "Cameron Calls For Enquiry in Lady Di's Death". My money is on the first before the weekend.

Paul

[Bazz]

Bye bye Gordon, at last he has fallen on his sword.

So Gordon has gone (only about 2 years, 11 months too late).

With regards to PR, New Zealand changed from FPTP to PR and since then has always had a hung parliament.

What I see is negotiations wihout the media being involved, and oh don't they hate it!

Maybe when we get electoral reform and perpetual hung parliaments the media could get more involved and have a post election party leader game show- something subtle presented by Noel Edmonds or Graham Norton - or even better Tyra Banks/Lisa Snowdon -

"David - your still in the running to be Britain's Next Top Minister"

Well, would you believe it? The Mods never locked this thread...

[Bazz]

...but we did contribute!

Well, would you believe it? The Mods never locked this thread...

good job you didnlt bet on it!

I think it was because it was a civilised thread and no abuse etc of either side of the political divide which has happened on other sites

So transport issues ...

whats going to happen re expansion of LHR (which the 'city' and 'business' wants) and high speed rail?

Better days ahead.....I suppose it is a matter of wait and see. 4 years they say. I give it 2 max.

Iain

[honey lamb]

Well, would you believe it? The Mods never locked this thread...

Why would we? You all played nicely

Better days ahead.....I suppose it is a matter of wait and see. 4 years they say. I give it 2 max.

Iain

6 months to a year more like before the back benchers start revolting - let alone the wider membership