Whats happening with the 330 order? (updated with pics)

I have just been browsing an interesting post on a.net (which currently has no replies). It would seem that there is something rather 'interesting' happening with the 330 order and came of somewhat a shock to me.

As we know the first five 330s that VS have ordered have been identified as:

G-VSXY c/n 1195
G-VKSS c/n 1201
G-VLUV c/n 1206
G-VGEM c/n 1215
G-VINE c/n 1231

Of course, XY is the first to arrive and is being configured in the now famous 'without J' layout and will be used firstly on MAN-MCO until SS arrives and they will be used on LGW-MCO. Indeed a number of people on here are even seeing 330 seat layouts on the 'manage my booking' function on the VS website.

However the poster on a.net points to some rather interesting sources which seem to confirm the following:

G-VSXY and G-VGEM has now been returned to leasor aerocap and will instead be heading straight to China Airlines.http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Airbus/A330/1195,B--China-Airlines.php http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Airbus/A330/1206,B-18391-China-Airlines.php

G-VLUV is showing as being returned to leesor although is also showing as being leased by VS to China Airlines.http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Airbus/A330/1206,B-18391-China-Airlines.php

G-VINE is now being advertised by Astraeus as being available for leasing this summer from them. http://www.planemart.com/FAA/Listing.asp?userid=-83928418&listid=-27821611

As far as I am aware this is the first news of this. I did initially doubt it was all false rumours by VS haters but now seeing it online on the above links I am beginning to wonder. Can anyone shed any light on this?

EDIT: JEthros, which is a very reliable fleet listing source for UK airlines, shows that 'XY, 'UV and 'EM are heading to CI on lease; 'SS is due to arrive in May and 'NE still for Sept.

Sorry for the links- not sure how to amend them as its no longer in the FAQs!

Will, no idea on what's happeneing with each ac but just for clarification, China Airlines is Taiwanese and not Chinese (contentious point for some I know!).

If cn1195 does go to CI surely that means MAN PAX are in for a disappointment in May.

Interesting - for my next MCO flight I'd opted to fly BA for the reason of no UC on the Airbus and the day I wanted to fly only the Airbus was operating from Gatwick.

[Neil]

Interesting, our April MCO booking still shows an A330, so seems strange for VS to wait so long to release the seat maps in the my booking section, then a couple of months later change things so dramatically.

Will, I've said it loud and often here, VS are only taking two of the A333s - you must have missed the threads. All of the other eight are going back to the lessors and, as you can see, some are already leased on since demand for A330s is high. There was another thread on ANet asking why CI's planes have a weird Y - J (actually PE) - Y layout, now you know!!!

The official line was that the reason is all to day with the new UCS being designed for the B787 and not fitting into the A333, due to a narrower cabin. The effort and cost to redesign it was not believed to be worth the result, so, the last I had was that #1 and #2 would be in PE / Y, #'s 3-5 would go out to another lessee, then #6 in 2012 would have the new UCS.

Consequently G-VELD and G-VAIR would have their leases extended to 2012 to keep a three class cabin on all LHR routes.

The B787 was forecast to come to VS in 2014 as opposed to the original date of May 2011. I guess that is going to slip further now too, possible 2015 for any B787s after the recent further production delay.

Thing is now, it seems all eight of the other A333s are being leased elsewhere, and for at least two years. So the previous update has been completely superseded. We won't get a LHR-configged A333 with new UCS in 2013, possibly not until 2014 or after - some ten years after UCS was introduced on G-VELD in 2005 (I think). On the remaining 343s that means ever declining standards for LHR frequent fliers too. I was on Plane Sailing last week, thankfully this is one that is going and hopefully in 2011, it's a dirty unworking mess in UCS. Avoid seat 1K since the motor's gone and so has the IFE.

Some'at is up. I'd love to know what. At worst its more evidence of VS's completely hapless and useless fleet planning ... or worse ... after all why buy ten big brand new new planes if, a year later, you don't need them, that's dumb.

Oh, and didn't VS only actually buy two A333s, some others were A346 conversions and others leased? VS paying the purchase deposits for the A346 conversions with B787 delay money then selling them on to ILFC or Aercap (i.e. getting ten A333s for very little outlay cleverly, but only actually getting two now).

[Nottingham Nick]

Slinky - thanks for posting such a comprehensive and informative summary - I know the majority of it is stuff you have posted before, but it brings it all nicely together.

... after all why buy ten big brand new new planes if, a year later, you don't need them, that's dumb.

Cynical veteran Virgin followers, like me, may suggest that the PR / media opportunities presented by new plane orders are held in far too high regard by the VS hierarchy. They are announced in a blaze of publicity and then quietly changed or forgotten in the following months.

How many times have we seen column inches taken up by wonderful announcements, that turn out to be not quite true?

Aircraft orders are just one area where this applies - also factor in Green innovations, new routes, possible mergers, anti BA / AA etc. rhetoric and in-flight facilities to name but a few.


Nick

G-VINE is now being advertised by Astraeus as being available for leasing this summer from them. http://www.planemart.com/FAA/Listing.asp?userid=-83928418&listid=-27821611

Sale/Lease : ACMI Lease

= wet lease?

I see theres a pic up of G-VKSS on airliners.net now - still unpainted though. I thought that they had to paint the rudders in the airlines livery straight away to get the balance right - althoug theres no hint of VS livery on this one. Infact both the engines and rudder look like they have been painted white.

What a mess !

This continued indecision by VS must be costing them lost sales - new planes, no planes - Upper, no Upper - new Premium Economy, old old Premium Economy - Nova, New V-Port

The website is set up for new planes with no upper, but who knows if/when they are coming, so Upper availability is cut and customers are looking elsewhere.

Plane interiors are getting tatty and prices are rising, so customers are looking elsewhere.

IFE is available (some of the time) customers are looking elsewhere

Refits - unfortunately, I'll believe it when I see them.

Virgin Atlantic has lost a lot of the "X-Factor" it used to have and all this indecision and "promises" that don't happen itsn't helping.

Lets hope we don't end up with another airline that has lost direction (BMI B) )

David

I'm also now very sceptical about the 744 refit - if the 333s aren't coming at all and two 343s are leaving.

Looks like the 2x343s leaving has been planned for some time:
http://sanders.com/Newsroom/NewsRelease ... 44250.html

I hope that a blockbuster announcement is due any time - would VS be due any further compensation from Boeing for further delays to the 787?

Will, no idea on what's happeneing with each ac but just for clarification, China Airlines is Taiwanese and not Chinese (contentious point for some I know!).

Yeh McMad well aware that CI are in fact Taiwanese and until relativley recently weren't even allowed to operate flights to China. Still a real bone of conetntion hence why Eva Air have to operate all

Will, I've said it loud and often here, VS are only taking two of the A333s - you must have missed the threads.

Slinks clearly I have!!!

All of the other eight are going back to the lessors and, as you can see, some are already leased on since demand for A330s is high. There was another thread on ANet asking why CI's planes have a weird Y - J (actually PE) - Y layout, now you know!!!

I had seen that thread on a.net about the odd CI layout but had not put two and two together at all.

The official line was that the reason is all to day with the new UCS being designed for the B787 and not fitting into the A333, due to a narrower cabin. The effort and cost to redesign it was not believed to be worth the result, so, the last I had was that #1 and #2 would be in PE / Y, #'s 3-5 would go out to another lessee, then #6 in 2012 would have the new UCS.

What a load of typical VS utter tosh. I am sorry but it has been well documented online and in industry press that the 787 was going to be delayed due to production issues. Surely as a future customer VS were given a "heads up" well before the likes of Flightblogger/Flight International et al put it into the mainstream aviation press. To hide behind this as an excuse to me is rather poor of VS. When they ordered the 330 delays to the 787 were well documented, at the stage of ordering hte 330 the accomodation of a new UCS surely was taken into consideration with the 330 specs?

Thing is now, it seems all eight of the other A333s are being leased elsewhere, and for at least two years. So the previous update has been completely superseded. We won't get a LHR-configged A333 with new UCS in 2013, possibly not until 2014 or after - some ten years after UCS was introduced on G-VELD in 2005 (I think). On the remaining 343s that means ever declining standards for LHR frequent fliers too. I was on Plane Sailing last week, thankfully this is one that is going and hopefully in 2011, it's a dirty unworking mess in UCS.

Hit the nail on the head re the old state of UCS. At one time VS was an innovator now, very sadly, they seem to be falling into the trap of the worst US legacy carriers, operating an outdated product. By 2015, as you point out Slinks, the UCS will look very tired.

Your point about dirty planes is a very good point, even G-VROS, which was what airborne in 2001, was looking disgustingly dirty in November.

Some'at is up. I'd love to know what. At worst its more evidence of VS's completely hapless and useless fleet planning ... or worse ... after all why buy ten big brand new new planes if, a year later, you don't need them, that's dumb.

Something is going down and it is not helped by SRB either. Coming out with statements to the Brazillian media about VS launching services to GIG by year end, which are then flately denied by VS PR is not great. And people wonder why a lot of us dont think the 380s will ever happen! On the evidence of this 330 farce, as you put it, there is no fleet planning at all. How on earth a PR department can make a big song and dance about a new aircraft that the VS top guns must have known was really going to be leased out for two years is beyond me.

[Scrooge]

Will, I've said it loud and often here, VS are only taking two of the A333s - you must have missed the threads.

Want to make a bet on that ?

I would be surprised to see even one in VS clours, however I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 in Virgin Blue colours very shortly.

Want to make a bet on that ?

I would be surprised to see even one in VS clours, however I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 in Virgin Blue colours very shortly.

Mr Scrooge, no, no bets, running an ETOPS certified sub-fleet of 2 makes zero sense to me ... I'm with your side on the betting, I don't think these planes will come near a VS route for years, if ever :0 .

However, DJ, perhaps, they recently took two A332s ex EK I believe ...

Want to make a bet on that ?

I would be surprised to see even one in VS clours, however I wouldn't be surprised to see 2 in Virgin Blue colours very shortly.

Mr Scrooge, no, no bets, running an ETOPS certified sub-fleet of 2 makes zero sense to me ... I'm with your side on the betting, I don't think these planes will come near a VS route for years, if ever :0 .

However, DJ, perhaps, they recently took two A332s ex EK I believe ...

So what do VS do with their MCO bookings .... lease or sell them off too?

Also remember they have just been recruiting A3 pilots.

[Nottingham Nick]

From a public confidence point of view - if VS suddenly say that the two A330's, that have been subject of so much hype and publicity, were not now coming - then it would be nothing short of a disaster IMHO.

I sincerely hope that those who are betting on no shows for them are wrong, but given their collective knowledge, I am not prepared to put my money where my hopes are, and bet against them. 8D

Nick

[Neil]

I can already see the 2078 page thread on The Dibb should the a/c not arrive as planned

I can already see the 2078 page thread on The Dibb should the a/c not arrive as planned

There are already some mutterings there - how long before it goes on Facebook?

We fly out to MCO in late April on VS73 from MAN which is scheduled as a 744 with the earlier VS75 still showing as a 330. This is from the VS website.

The first 2 A330's are going into service with VS. The next 4 off production are being leased, and the remainder will go to VS from 2012.

Im just totally confused now =P
Im booked for a MAN to MCO flight in August on one of those A333 planes. So if VS dont end up running those planes will we be flying on a 747? or will it be some random crap plane from another airline? When i was about 14 virgin had a some sort of mess up with a plane delivery, so took our 747 down to london n we were on some very weird and old plane from a different airline...dont want that happening again =( especially since ive paid to fly premium on the new shiny plane! Guess we will just have to wait and see what happens in April ?

[Neil]

Who knows - but if they don't end up running the A330's (although the email sent out to FC members today still mentions them) then it will almost certainly be one of the current 747's.

The A330's were meant to give the 747 fleet some time to get their re-fits done, as the only new route this year is MAN-LAS 2 x weekly, so hardly a big increase in demand on the fleet.

Sorry if seem negative but might end up being able to get UC seats on 747 as wanted all along.

It looks as though 2 A333s arrive in Apr/May according to Jethros, slinky and StillHot.

That should allow some slack for B744 refits particularly if a prodigal returns from S. America.

It does make some sense for VS to get their ETOPS practice in with only a few aircraft so ready for the main expansion next year when they have sorted the UCS problems.

I see the original post on a.net has been deleted.... perhaps in embarrassed confusion...

It looks as though 2 A333s arrive in Apr/May according to Jethros, slinky and StillHot.

That should allow some slack for B744 refits particularly if a prodigal returns from S. America.

It does make some sense for VS to get their ETOPS practice in with only a few aircraft so ready for the main expansion next year when they have sorted the UCS problems.

I see the original post on a.net has been deleted.... perhaps in embarrassed confusion...

I have double-checked this evening, and 2 A330's are 100% entering service with VS this year. The 3 off the production line after this will be leased for now and enter into service with VS at a later date. The remainder of the order will be delivered from around April 2012 and will enter into service with VS.

I've also seen all of the names for the A330's but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to reveal those, so for now I won't.

I have double-checked this evening, and 2 A330's are 100% entering service with VS this year. The 3 off the production line after this will be leased for now and enter into service with VS at a later date. The remainder of the order will be delivered from around April 2012 and will enter into service with VS.

Thanks for this, it seems to contradict information available elsewhere, in that #'s 3 through 6 will be leased (according to their owners, not VS, who don't own them) meaning April 2012 is somewhat doubtful. Even in December VS was saying new UC earlier than April 2012 too. So, will hold breath, and if they really arrive in VS colours with new products, that will be something.