Lapsed VS flyers? Why?

For me, paying out of my own pocket each and every time, it's very much about the consistency of product and perceived value.

Same here. All my travel these days is funded out of my own pocket, although about half is for work (I run my own one man band, and therefore I get to choose how I want to travel).

Agreed, consistency is king. However some reports suggest that BA's new mixed-fleet crews may suffer the same inconsistencies as VS in the soft product, although time will tell. I have yet to have had a mixed-fleet crew.

Howard

I would choose VS. I've only flown BA once and although the flight was OK the IFE didn't work and the flight attendants were the most miserable people I've ever met. I've always found VS to be more child friendly and cheaper when I've compared flights with BA, but that might just be the route we take.

I use VS 100% because of the reward miles via Amex. on avergae i have had 2 to 3 trips a year inc the econ-PE upgrades for the past 5 years. thats worth a fair bit to me.

also it would take a lot to tempt me back to any American long haul carrier . which leaves BA......and sadly we fell out years ago after a crappy trip TPA -LGW ending up with a small court claim.......if only there was an alternative !

With the shoe on the other foot, I seriously fell out with BA during the dirty tricks campaign, and regularly had my work-issued BA tickets endorsed onto BMI and VS specifically to avoid BA.

A few years later, as BMI reduced their short haul EU J service to picnic boxes, and then removed J almost completely apart from a few domestics, almost all my EU travel went to BA. Then they removed J from the domestics, and I switched to BA 100% on domestic too.

BA, until about four years ago, was an outsider for long haul for me, other than a few Concorde trips and some Fs to destinations like ATL and YVR that VS don't fly to.

I then had a lengthy posting in JER that really pushed up my tier points on BA, making BA a more alluring option.

I think the nail in the coffin for VS for me were a couple of trips CPT-LHR and NRT-LHR a couple of years ago when I felt more and more that the soft product was like travelling in Y and not UC. Nice seat, nice bar (if you could get to it with all the crew+mates), but overworked crew had no time for pleasantries.

I flew a couple more times in UC to use up my miles, then almost everything switched to BA.

Howard

You must PM me next time you are around RHR, I just moved around the corner a few months ago to Chelsea Embankment, a quick pre dinner drinky awaits.

Thank you - done y) .

Sorry, the post didn't read the way I meant it to about BA F. I was trying to say that the very fact BA has F for me is a reason to use BA over VS, rather than a direct comparison of the two products. (Alhtough I hasten to mention that this didn't stop VS advertising UC as "first class for a business class price" some years ago.)

I know what you mean, and that advertising ran it's course a long time ago didn't it. I meant what I said though, for some reason I do seem to get fantastic VS crew and really if it weren't for them (lack of an alliance is another fast growing factor) I'd probably switch too. In recent years I haven't done a BA J long haul, must try it, but have done AA F, CX J, 9Y J and F, EK J and F, AF J plus lots of short hauls, and no other flight has matched by VS experiences yet. Back on SQ for the first time in several years next week, and I expect the crew to be charming, over polite, efficient, but soul less, let's see ...

A very interesting debate this one, and in trademark V-Flyer decomu...

I note that most stating minimal issues recently with #VS service travel predominantly in the UC cabin. Is it possible that the widest variance of service and CC sparkle is in the PE cabin?

Having travelled in all 3 cabins in recent years, J is still a great product, dirty seats, broken equipment etc aside, Y is a means to get from A to B and anything more is a bonus, and W is, for me, the middle ground where I have certain expectations.

I also travelled BA WTP and CW recently, and both were very positive experiences. Yes, the crew are less engaging, but on this occasion I was travelling alone, and this style of service suited me very well indeed.

The comment re child-friednliness on VS is a good one. VS crews in the main have always been great with my daughter (apart from that trip back from BGI recently...).

It's interesting too, that such a debate shold generate such interest - why is that I wonder? I'm not sure such debates would spring up about BA/AA/QF etc (or would they?).

For me, it simply comes down to the bed. The CW bed is utterly rubbish and the fact you get a blanket and not a duvet makes a huge difference.

Maybe I have been lucky but I've always had a good experience in UC.

We (my GF and I) have only been flying VS since 2007, and we have never flown BA long haul. We're probably the classic 'once or twice a year' leisure flyers.

We started out in Economy, graduating to PE and have thus far made 2 UC flights (third booked for August) made possible by FC points and AMEX vouchers.

Quite simply we keep using VS because we think that they are the best airline on the routes we wish to fly. I believe that the PE product is the best across the pond (except Air NZ to LAX) and UC is a really nice 'treat'.

I have rarely encountered a bad/grumpy/miserable/disinterested VS crew member, always found them willing to engage in conversation and by-and-large the Flying Club meets our needs. The AMEX PE voucher combined with the NYC reward seat sale is excellent value for crossing the pond.

With regards to BA, my parents use them exclusively and think they're pretty good. Personally I perceive them to be pretty stingy, with (largely) older aircraft than VS, and distinct majority of 'senior' cabin crew.

Avios appear to be good value, as you can upgrade from a sale WT+ to Club for 10,000 Avios per sector.

But, although I've never flown BA Club my perception of it is that it's inferior to VS Upper because:
- inferior lounges, with no waiter service for food, it's all buffet self-service and looks too much like school dinners for me.
- no bar
- no PJs or duvet (just a blanket)
- have to pay either £60 or £80 per person per leg to select a seat before OLCI opens (extra £320 rtn for 2 people)
- on the 'sleeper service' routes the menu looks extremely stingy compared to the VS equivalent.

Having said all that, we have accumulated just over 80k in Avios through Tesco which we will no doubt use on BA eventually. This will more-than-likely be on a non-VS route.

In the short-term, it will take something pretty epic for me to sway away from VS, but the issues I've listed below do grate at me ang may sway me in the mid-term:
- alliance?
- lack of real expansion,
- confusing/poorly marketed on board service changes or improvements (are we getting a new UC?)
- poor website
- mental block on how to deal with connecting flights booked on the same PNR
- an obsession with brand, brand, brand rather than doing the 'bread and butter' of delivering what you say you will, when you said you will.
- random fleet planning (A330's being sent off to random places)

P.S. sorry for the mini-essay!

I fly on business, a good handful of times each year. I rely on miles or my own money to upgrade. Until recently my long-haul travel went through a phase of being exclusively on VS. However, in October I tried BA First (having not flown them long-haul for 15 years), and was very impressed. Must do a trip report! I have also been using up all my VS miles, which has resulted in several nice UC redemption bookings. So I am on the point of lapsing too.

I don't really have a problem with VS. The reason I am tempted to switch to BA is mainly because of the cheap MFUs from WT+ to Club. Plus, you can reach silver status quite easily (more easily than VS gold) and the benefits are similar to VS gold. The existence of a first-class cabin is another bonus, as is the alliance membership.

I've actually flown in all cabins on VS and I think that their real winner is actually PE. The Virgin PE product is a great combination of comfort, service, and value. Economy is no better than anyone else I've flown with. UC is nice but rather overhyped, and I have noticed the way in which it has been pared back.

Having started out by saying that I am on the point of lapsing, I just booked another trip with VS because I was able to get a good mileage upgrade to UC. Redemption availability has always been good for my routes. This, plus the strength of the PE product, plus the burgeoning links with the other Virgin airlines (in particular Virgin America, which is excellent), might yet keep me loyal for a bit longer. I will also be keeping a close eye on how the new JFK lounge is rated -- if the ground product starts to decline, then VS will concede a major advantage.

Hi Howard, good question.

For us it is fairly simple, location (being out of the UK for 50 wks) and price! As much as we love VS, BA have always beat VS in J each time for us,and as we all pay full price, 80% of ticket for the 2 kids I think on long haul, it can add up to quite a difference.

Not got to the stage yet where we will put the kids in a seperate cabin (and probably never will).

If our journey originates in Europe then a *A carrier usually gets our business. M&M programme is very good and rewards are easy.

For a US-based traveler with a reasonable amount of US travel, loss of benefits from traveling with a european carrier ended up being the significant driver.

I did enough travel in 2009 to make both AU on VS and 1K on United, and found the benefits of 1K and *A too much to pass up, so ended up consolidating. It'd be a stretch to say UA J bests VS, though there are aspects of it that I prefer to VS, like the seat and the IFE and, occasionally, the food on board. It's still much more "commodity" flying. And, interestingly, the combo with CO is figuring to make things worse.

I've said it before in similar threads, VS stopped being special and that helped the decision. You can still find pics by Howard on airlinemeals.net of a LHR-NRT flight from 2003 - check that cheese plate! And there is one at the old UC bar on his return flight where I count four bowls of sundry items to pick from!

I basically stopped caring too much who I fly with. I'm giving UA a chance to prove itself this year, but will happily switch to AA/BA if UACO screw up the merger even more than they already have. I'm loyal to people who are loyal to me; I'll count my own beans if they insist on counting theirs

MarkedMan:
"I'm loyal to people who are loyal to me; I'll count my own beans if they insist on counting theirs"

That's brilliant, and sums up my own thoughts perfectly.

Declaring my interests first... I'm gold VS (3 years) and Gold EK (6 years), and I work in the industry, but I don't get discounted tickets.

All airlines have strengths and weaknesses. The airline that gets everything right would clearly wipe the floor with everyone else My list of airline weaknesses are:

EK - lousy Airbus business class (except the 380). Very variable crew. On the plus side, very very good ICE, very good catering, great FFP.

BA - CW bed not long enough, and mattress not thick enough. Catering good, IFE improving, but very variable cabin crew. Huge network, and a real sense of being able to cope.

VS USED to have a great UC product, but this was tied to a lousy FFP. Great cabin crew pretty much all the time, but pretty average ICE - especially for an entertainment company. And a great bed, bar and lounge. But - the product has been degraded - the FFP is still lousy, the crew now seem overworked, the UC catering is slop in too many cases (four pieces of cold cheesy ravioli as a main course???) and too many things are being taken away in the name of 'improvement'. Cabins are looking more and more dog-eared, and it all feels more and more penny pinched.

All airlines can get things wrong and get away with it, as I said none of them are perfect. But when the strong points get weaker, the weak points become more apparent.

I'm chucking in my VS gold card this year, and have just renewed my EK one for another year. BA gets my money again for other routes. Sorry, Virgin, but you brought this on yourselves.

Each to their own and all, but I find myself somewhat vehemently not in agreement with you:

VS USED to have a great UC product, but this was tied to a lousy FFP. Great cabin crew pretty much all the time, but pretty average ICE - especially for an entertainment company. And a great bed, bar and lounge. But - the product has been degraded - the FFP is still lousy, the crew now seem overworked, the UC catering is slop in too many cases (four pieces of cold cheesy ravioli as a main course???) and too many things are being taken away in the name of 'improvement'. Cabins are looking more and more dog-eared, and it all feels more and more penny pinched.

As the saying goes, you get out what you put in, but:

- Compared to EK J UC is still pretty damned good (also an Skywards Gold BTW), of course some cabins are getting older, they ALL do, and refurbs and refreshes are part and parcel of all airlines.
- The food is not IME as bad as that, it is certainly not slop and I've had some very good recent meals (some surprised me so much recently I asked for seconds!), and EK's has gone downward over the years as an aside. EK wines are certainly better though and I'm on record wishing VS would spend more here.
- I find FC excellent for my needs BUT the lack of an alliance and real partner options is a big minus; yes lousy if you compare to BA on the route options front, yes EK you can upgrade onboard (which is great BTW), but in redemptions and I dare say based on my experience availability, it's very good - and in many ways better that others (Y to J upgrade which you can't do on BA for example, no $500 fee to upgrade with miles like on AA, etc.), the recent reduction in upgrade mileage PE to UC is amazing!
- I'd say the IFE is industry average (VPort) and industry best (JAM) - noting that ICE is pretty much the industry leader - perspectives are important?
- Cabin crews agreed are excellent y) whereas many are not (EK can be indifferent and sloppy through to great, BA's are OK and average as a sweeping statement, US carriers are like asking your granny to get up and serve the table B) ).

All airline hard products go through a process of launch, new and looks and feels great, through to familiarity, then old, then renewed - VS is in the late stage of this process at the moment and I hope the new UCS is just as exciting as when it was introduced, together with other investments in the onboard product. I think this is what people are experiencing mostly, it's been a while since UC and new PE, and the cycle of change is coming again.

Let me clarify my thoughts on the FFP for a start. EK and many others let you upgrade with miles ANY ticket - not just the most expensive categories. I must have upgraded thirty tickets with EK, and had a 'no availability' message three times. That's pretty good. EK J catering is IMHO very, very good - decent food, decent portions and a really great cheeseboard. But you are right, each to their own. I have NEVER managed to get a Virgin free flight or upgrade - case in point, I am looking for two UC seats to SFO - and they can offer me, from May to end August, only five dates - with the returns all less than four days later. That's dismal by any standard.

I don't for a second think that JAM holds a candle to ICE. Sorry, but there it is.

Virgin customer service is heading off downhill - when was the last time any Gold card holders were welcomed aboard a VS flight by name? I've never seen it. What about all the service reductions - no more massage, charging for things that were free in the Clubhouse, the lost pens, polos, the end of the S&P shakers - not much perhaps, but a trend downwards.

The bed still wins, I agree - but as I say, it's looking dog-eared, and I have had problems on almost all my last flights - headphones that don't work, poor video quality, seat mechanisms that jam etc. Not good.

I have NEVER managed to get a Virgin free flight or upgrade - case in point, I am looking for two UC seats to SFO - and they can offer me, from May to end August, only five dates - with the returns all less than four days later. That's dismal by any standard.

Plenty in April including over Easter... I have just being looking at 4 seats in UC with numerous choices plus appears to be dozens in each month you mention :w have you looked recently, as don't forget they've added a second SFO flight

Virgin U/C vs British Airways C/W! I have to say that BA wins over cabin interior and service and in a lot of cases price! Flying twice last year to EWR in U/C both times using a 747, The cabin was so tired looking, the bar was a mess and the food was not good and on one of the flights back to Heathrow the Flight Attendants just seemed to have "I really don't wanna be here" attitude, I am flying on Virgin in a couple of weeks to EWR but only in Economy out & P/E back, I will do a trip report on here for all you lovely people out there!

MarkedMan:
"I'm loyal to people who are loyal to me; I'll count my own beans if they insist on counting theirs"

That's brilliant, and sums up my own thoughts perfectly.

I stole it from "Prisoner's Dilemma For Dummies"

Then again, maybe based on the first bullet in this piece in today's Chronicle, I ought to reconsider my view that the extra bits of service in UC are going away ... :0

[honey lamb]

Virgin U/C vs British Airways C/W! I have to say that BA wins over cabin interior and service and in a lot of cases price!

My experience was exactly the opposite. I can't comment on the price aspect as the BA flight I took wasn't flown by VS but every other time the prices have matched.

I was totally open-minded about the experience on BA - indeed I welcomed the change. I hated the claustrophobic seat in a CW window seat and on my return, chose an aisle seat where I was knocked at every hand's turn. The crew on the outbound were awful - the worst I have ever experienced and the service was abysmal. The return journey was better but no better than a good enough VS flight. As for the cabin...apart from the weird layout of CW and having to climb over someone's legs to go in and out of the seats, my seat was positively grimy!!! :$

[Darren Wheeler]

Virgin customer service is heading off downhill - when was the last time any Gold card holders were welcomed aboard a VS flight by name? I've never seen it.

May.
October
November

In fact all my flights this year

[honey lamb]

Virgin customer service is heading off downhill - when was the last time any Gold card holders were welcomed aboard a VS flight by name? I've never seen it.

May.
October
November

In fact all my flights this year

Snap! All my flights over the past couple of years - if not actually by name my gold status has been recognised. Moreover I have been remembered by crew who had been on previous flights even to the extent that they have remembered my preferences y)

I have NEVER managed to get a Virgin free flight or upgrade - case in point, I am looking for two UC seats to SFO

BGI return 2004; SFO return 2010 August using miles; upgrade IAD April 2011; JFK return December 2011. Granted flexible about dates...

Virgin customer service is heading off downhill - when was the last time any Gold card holders were welcomed aboard a VS flight by name? I've never seen it.

See above (well, except for 2004); and I'm only a Red card holder.

VS USED to have a great UC product, but this was tied to a lousy FFP. Great cabin crew pretty much all the time, but pretty average ICE - especially for an entertainment company.

Virgin Atlantic is an airline. Virgin Media is a content delivery company. Virgin Records was an money making venture. I wouldn't in a million years ever call Virgin an entertainment company.

the UC catering is slop in too many cases (four pieces of cold cheesy ravioli as a main course

Sorry to disagree, but I don't recognise this at all. Admittedly I'm not in that postion where I get to compare and contrast (well, save for EZY and FirstCapitalConnect) without risking b*ggering up my once or twice a year trip so I rely on comments here and my experiences. Nothing in the past 14 years has caused me to doubt my preference, and our treatment by VS through our recent JFK return was enough to gain loyalty for a good while yet.

Well, thanks for all the replies. I am truly glad that you have had a better time from Virgin Atlantic than I have had. Well done. But the fact remains that I get a frankly ropey and declining level of service from pretty much all aspects of VS apart from the bar in the Clubhouse in Heathrow.

You can all say how wonderful it is - but that is not my experience. And as per the title of this thread - why I am I a lapsed VS Flyer? I think I answered that. And reading many other fora, I am not alone.

Another bug for me - checking in for UC from Accra to London. I pay several thou. At the check in, they are offering Y to J upgrades for the equivalent of £220. Makes you feel really inclined to pay for Upper next time.....

Northernhenry - I am starting not to trust the VS website - can you actually see ANY UC availability to SFO in August before the 21st? I can't.

its likely that no UC miles flights have been released for most of August as its the Olympics