Bilateral agreements with other airlines (e.g. ANA)

The reason I joined this forum was to vent my spleen at discovering that despite having Gold status and having bought a flight from the VS website, I didn't actually have access to the LHR clubhouse, only to the ANA clubhouse, because the flight was operated by ANA. !

The ANA rep, a Japanese woman, was adamant at the time that VS should have let me in, but in the end she gave up trying to negotiate with them, apologised profusely, and said I could also have access to the Star Alliance lounge.

The latter worked a couple of times again (at which point I'd basically given up any hope that VS would do the right thing), but then one day I checked in when the ANA rep in question was not there and the staff initially refused to give me the requisite voucher. When I said I was VS Gold and ANA had a bilateral agreement with VS and the Japanese rep had let me in in the past, they (all being gaijin, i.e. not Japanese) said something along the lines of "ah, yes, she does, but we don't think she should". :0

They then said I should go to the VS clubhouse, at which point I said VS won't let me in because the flight is operated by ANA, and it all got annoying again. They eventually relented "for this time", but said VS kept changing the rules and this was why they would not let VS Gold flyers into the Star Alliance lounge anymore.

My questions are:

a) Why won't VS just do the right thing for its Gold members, i.e. let them in to the clubhouse if they've bought a flight from their website?

b) Why won't VS clearly state the extent of privileges granted by Gold membership with other airlines, if flying with said airline (lounge access, baggage bonus, etc.)? Should a Wiki be started?

c) How are you supposed to prove anything if someone at the check-in desk/lounge reception tells you that no, sorry, your combination of status/airline/class/phase of the moon doesn't give you access to the lounge?

d) Will any of these things get any better if VS joins Star Alliance?

Mark

P.S.: http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/eu/al ... ws/ana.jsp
is awfully misleading. "ANA passengers may enjoy access to a network of over 916 airport destinations in 160 countries, and reciprocal benefits such as mileage accrual and redemption and lounge access." -- the reciprocal benefits are for Star Alliance FFs, not VS FFs. v(

As far as I recall VS is been clear that access to the CH is restricted to pax that are flying on VS metal that day and not to a VS codeshare on other airlines even if they are Gold.

Just because you bought your flight from the VS website makes no difference. It is the carrier that is important not where you bought your ticket from. In somecases you can book via VS and still not be allowed in the CH e.g. you could buy a VS codeshare on CO but not use the CH (mind the fact they operated from different termimans might have something to do with that)

Airlines are very protective of their lounges and unless you have the right combination of status and fare you simply won't get in. That seems to apply even in alliances. E.g. at BOS there was a sign on the LH/LX lounge door that stated that you could only access it if you were flying F/J on LH/LX that day no matter what colour card you held and the general A* rules.

I find that ANA staff rarely are even aware that they have any agreement with VS. I often have to argue with them to get my VS number put on my ANA flights.

Of course, US Airways staff is very much the same on this, also blissfully unaware of their agreements.

Personally, I'd love it if VS had codeshares on ANA flights from SFO to NRT&HND, particularly now that ANA has eliminated the Premium Economy seats from those routes and my VS Gold status means nothing to ANA for upgrades.

There's a difference between a codeshare and VS bilateral agreements with other airlines. Basically, VS agreements are only for earning and spending miles. There's no integration at the operational level. This is why many of the partners' check-in staff don't even know that you can earn miles with your VS FC card. (I have to explain this every time I fly US airways).

So, the fact that you are flying ANA is irrelevant to CH access. Second, If VS let everyone at LHR T3 with a Au into the clubhouse regardless of who they are flying with its possible the CH would become too busy.

In fact, I find this argument a little untenable. I very much doubt that there are many Au holders flying on other airlines from T3 at any one time. Most Au holders will be flying VS anyway and any not flying VS are likely to be flying some route which VS does not operate. I think what VS fears is that some AU holders will start flying their regular business route with another airline. There's an incentive for the passenger to do this because once you have VS Au, it can be worth earning loyalty with another airline instead; TPs don't get rolled over at year end. I can see that if you are flying a competing airline and earning loyalty with them that VS shouldn't let you in the CH. OTOH, I think if you are flying a competing airline and you are using your VS card to earn (fewer) miles on that flight (i.e. your VS FC card number is printed on your BP) then there is a much stronger argument that you should be able to use the CH.

The way I see it, this restriction tries to force you to be loyal, not reward you for past loyalty and I don't like it. Most Au holders not flying VS through T3 will be using routes not available with VS and so this rule simply punishes the loyal Au member for the fact that VS has an extremely limited network.

As far as I recall VS is been clear that access to the CH is restricted to pax that are flying on VS metal that day and not to a VS codeshare on other airlines even if they are Gold.

It was certainly not clear to me at the time of the original incident. And I don't think it's particularly clear even now. If you look at http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/us/fr ... /index.jsp it says:

Clubhouse comforts: You and a guest, flying with us on the same day, can take advantage of our gorgeous Clubhouses. Enjoy a massage, grab some refreshments or work in award winning luxury before your flight.

What is "flying with us"? I would say that having a boarding pass with a VS prefix (not a NH prefix) and having bought said flight on the VS website could reasonably be expected to count as "flying with us".

Compare the wording with the next bit:

Revive when you arrive: You also have individual access to Virgin Atlantic's Revivals lounge when flying into London Heathrow on a 'VS' prefix ticket. It's the best way to get refreshed after after a long haul flight before exploring the city.

So here it's not "flying with us" but "flying with on a 'VS' prefix ticket". Does that mean the rule is different? I could use the Revivals lounge having flow in an ANA plane, as long as my ticket was bought through VS? [This is a theoretical question as it stands, because all flights from Tokyo arrive in the afternoon. But it could become relevant e.g. if I bought a CO flight from the VS website.]

Mark

P.S.: I have a feeling that there used to be an asterisk at http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/us/fr ... /index.jsp which gave some smallprint. I further have a feeling the asterisk was originally only on the "Revive when you arrive" bit, not the "Clubhouse comforts" bit, and only appeared there after I whinged at VS. But perhaps I'm misremembering or have an inflated sense of my importance (God forbid!).

I find that ANA staff rarely are even aware that they have any agreement with VS. I often have to argue with them to get my VS number put on my ANA flights.

Yes, I had that problem (at TSA) once. They did, however, sort it out and come to the lounge to tell me it had been sorted out [*]; they explained that the problem was that they're all geared up for Star Alliance and don't really have any experience of non-SA partners.

Mark

[*] Though the miles/tier points didn't turn up initially. The reason VS gave was that ANA had introduced a new fare code and so the VS system had treated the flights as not eligible.

There's a difference between a codeshare and VS bilateral agreements with other airlines. Basically, VS agreements are only for earning and spending miles.

Not for to ANA and VS, though, according to their (joint) press release (see http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/eu/al ... ws/ana.jsp):

We are delighted to announce the start of our code-sharing agreement in August this year. Between us we will offer our customers greater flexibility and choice when making their travel plans, and outstanding products that reflect the best of British and Japanese style. Six years ago we tied up our Frequent Flyer Programmes in a move that benefited the loyal customers of both companies residing in either country. So this is a logical and long-awaited extension of an already successful friendship.

So the "just for earning and spending miles" aspect was agreed in 2003 or so. In 2009 they agreed to go further than that, though.

If VS let everyone at LHR T3 with a Au into the clubhouse regardless of who they are flying with its possible the CH would become too busy.

I think they could restrict it to everyone travelling under Au though flying with a partner airline, or even just everyone travelling under Au who bought their ticket from the VS website (that would give them control over how widely to give the benefit, and avoid nasty surprises).

In fact, I find this argument a little untenable. I very much doubt that there are many Au holders flying on other airlines from T3 at any one time.

Even more a reason to just allow them into the CH, then!

Most Au holders will be flying VS anyway and any not flying VS are likely to be flying some route which VS does not operate. I think what VS fears is that some AU holders will start flying their regular business route with another airline. There's an incentive for the passenger to do this because once you have VS Au, it can be worth earning loyalty with another airline instead; TPs don't get rolled over at year end. I can see that if you are flying a competing airline and earning loyalty with them that VS shouldn't let you in the CH. OTOH, I think if you are flying a competing airline and you are using your VS card to earn (fewer) miles on that flight (i.e. your VS FC card number is printed on your BP) then there is a much stronger argument that you should be able to use the CH.

In my case, I prefer the ANA flight because it leaves in the evening and so allows me to do a day's work and then catch the flight. The VS flight leaves at lunchtime so I have to lose a working day. (On the way back they both leave at lunchtime, so I do have an incentive to pick VS.) But the whole point of the ANA-VS love-in was presumably to ensure I don't just jump ship and become an ANA FF.

The way I see it, this restriction tries to force you to be loyal, not reward you for past loyalty and I don't like it. Most Au holders not flying VS through T3 will be using routes not available with VS and so this rule simply punishes the loyal Au member for the fact that VS has an extremely limited network.

I agree. I'm not an economist or an airline expert, but I've come to the conclusion that VS is dead unless it can join an alliance and so allow travellers to fly with it to destinations other than the handful they serve.

Mark

From this page relating to FC AU it states access to CH is restricted to

*Virgin Atlantic operated flights only (not including codeshare flights).

Pretty clear to me.


edited to fix quote

Ah, OK, it seems the US version of the page (quoted above) hasn't sprouted the asterisks.

Anyway, that's what it says now. I don't think it said that when I had my lounge mishap, which was the summer of last year.

Compare:

13 Feb 2010, no asterisk: http://web.archive.org/web/201002130026 ... /index.jsp

and

5 Dec 2010, asterisk: http://web.archive.org/web/201012050231 ... /index.jsp

In any case, my original questions a)-d) stand!

Mark

Gah! Summer of last year is August 2011, not August 2010!

So, I guess it was stated at the point I had the lounge mishap (though I can't help feeling it should have been made much clearer, ideally at the point I was buying the tickets).

Now for a)-d)...

Mark B)

I absolutely share your frustrations. Its not made particularly explicit on the website and it was a surprise to me when I first attained FC Au. I also agree that VS must join a network properly or it will continue to suffer. If I was starting a FF program from scratch I'm afraid I would have chosen BA simply because of the larger network. I prefer VS in lots of ways to BA but having VS Au membership and having no real benefits flying internally in the US is a real PITA.

If I was starting a FF program from scratch I'm afraid I would have chosen BA simply because of the larger network.

One of my colleagues has argued that I should do so anyway, because it's easier to get/maintain BA Silver status than VS Gold status, and BA Silver status is enough to get you into BA (and I guess their oneworld partners'?) lounges. At the moment I'm still trying to be loyal to VS, because (perhaps I'm just being bamboozled by clever marketing?) they seem like the nicer airline from an emotional perspective, but...

having VS Au membership and having no real benefits flying internally in the US is a real PITA.

I totally agree. !

How come VS hasn't joined an alliance yet? Is it that they don't want to (do they really think they can survive alone?) or is it that no-one wants to let them in (why? For instance, they seem to have a lot of bilateral agreements with Star Alliance members already)?

Mark

From this page relating to FC AU it states access to CH is restricted to

*Virgin Atlantic operated flights only (not including codeshare flights).

Pretty clear to me.

Except it's not true is it, if you're flying in Suites on SQ you can access the clubhouse, on a non-VS codeshare.