Bye Bye Virgin Trains?

Love them, hate them, indifferent to them?

Virgin Trains are set to lose the West Coast rail franchise to First Group (of First Capital Connect and First Great Western fame) who have bid £7bn to run the InterCity routes from Euston for 14 years.

Somethings to remember:
National Express defaulted on East Coast after promising £1.7bn over ten years.
This was after GNER defaulted on the same franchise after promising £1.3bn over ten years.

Will they ever learn?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012 ... sfeed=true

Love them, hate them, indifferent to them?

Virgin Trains are set to lose the West Coast rail franchise to First Group (of First Capital Connect and First Great Western fame) who have bid £7bn to run the InterCity routes from Euston for 14 years.

Somethings to remember:
National Express defaulted on East Coast after promising £1.7bn over ten years.
This was after GNER defaulted on the same franchise after promising £1.3bn over ten years.

Will they ever learn?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012 ... sfeed=true

Its not officially announced yet, so I just hold out hope.

Its not just overbid like they always seem to do, but its removing one of the few aspirational train operators. Nobody else seems to be doing the Voyager trains (apart from the ones Cross Country inherited) or the Pendelino trains, sticking to old rolling stock and crappy local type trains running over long distances...

Only means a vast reduction in service to me. I don't know if they will take Virgins rolling stock.

The rumour was that Virgin wanted the East coast route, so perhaps they will continue to exist...

They will have to use Virgin rolling stock. It doesn't belong to Virgin.

Wonder whether prices will go up - I have to use First Great Western at times which are really expensive and don't offer WiFi or any meals......I do hope not!

Wonder whether prices will go up - I have to use First Great Western at times which are really expensive and don't offer WiFi or any meals......I do hope not!

I'm taking a shot that they've overbid for it, so they'll cut services, cut onboard service and stick the prices up. I sense a widening of peak period to make off peak be between 11:01pm and 11:05pm.

But yes, First, I'm sure its named ironically..

Confirmed - Virgin Trains have lost the franchise to First Group.

I'm sensing that in future, members of the government might be getting a 'little extra' added to their food if they fly Virgin Atlantic...

I reckon Blairs lot was ok with Virgin, Browns lot less so, and this lot virtually enemies of Branson...

I'm sensing that in future, members of the government might be getting a 'little extra' added to their food if they fly Virgin Atlantic...

I reckon Blairs lot was ok with Virgin, Browns lot less so, and this lot virtually enemies of Branson...

Whatever the truth (and I suspect SRB is more of plutocrat in that he gets on with whoever is in government) I don't believe this current gov. know what to do about transport ... or much else for that matter.

As to the WCML ... no comment from me, I'm not that learned about it nor use it.

This government will not do Sir R any favours they are "old school" tories, Sir R is a populist "real" capitlist with a concience. They will likely give the banks to the co-op though to try get brownie points from the little people that know how much a pint of milk costs.

What will happen to the cool trains Virgin has?

First will use the trains... they don't just disappear :-p

Some figures.

First bid £5.5bn and lodged a £190m bond
Virgin bid £4.6bn and lodged a £60m bond.

While Virgin are claiming that First's offer is unsustainable, remember that Virgin Trains themselves had to renegotiate the West Coast franchise after their initial promise was er, undeliverable.

First have promised:

- major refurbishment of Pendolino and Voyager interiors with new seats throughout and improved luggage space - bye bye catering? Or possible redistribution of First/Standard carriages.
- introduction of 11 new 125mph six-car electric trains for Birmingham - Scotland services
- improvement in journey time of 15 minutes for trains between London and Glasgow
- new direct services from London to Blackpool, Telford, Shrewsbury and Bolton
- a doubling of frequency of London to Preston services, and adding more capacity to Chester and North Wales

- Reducing Standard Anytime fares by 15% on average
These fares are eye watering anyway so 15% off isn't a great deal. These fare have increased by far more over the Virgin years than on East Coast and Great Western franchises.

Some figures.

First bid £5.5bn and lodged a £190m bond
Virgin bid £4.6bn and lodged a £60m bond.

While Virgin are claiming that First's offer is unsustainable, remember that Virgin Trains themselves had to renegotiate the West Coast franchise after their initial promise was er, undeliverable.

First have promised:

- major refurbishment of Pendolino and Voyager interiors with new seats throughout and improved luggage space - bye bye catering? Or possible redistribution of First/Standard carriages.

There's been talk of the catering being removed to get more seats in.

Frankly the trains don't need new seats. They aren't old or worn. Seems as if there won't be a whole lot to change on the seat front (apart from squeezing more in, that is, I know the massive difference in leg room between a First Scotrail double seat vs a current Virgin/Cross Country voyager seat, I have to sit sideways on the Scotrail ones).

As for the idea (not a bad one) of dropping some first class carriages to put more standard ones in, I always thought this was a condition of the franchise to have those. I can't imagine Virgin wanted to run a third of their trains empty to London and back most of the time, so I'll be surprised it those are dropped.

- introduction of 11 new 125mph six-car electric trains for Birmingham - Scotland services

Notice no use of 'improvement' here. These are what I'd refer to as 'trundlies', slower trains. I really have no doubt that this will take at least 50% longer to get there. I'm not an expert, I'm guessing from using various services across the country, but I don't think they can hit the speeds of a Voyager or Pendelino.

- improvement in journey time of 15 minutes for trains between London and Glasgow
- new direct services from London to Blackpool, Telford, Shrewsbury and Bolton

I also got the impression that these weren't allowed in the last franchise, that Wrexham and Shrewsbury (was that the name?) had the right to run those, but only by the back rounds and dump people in the middle of nowhere. That these were only an option once W&S went bust.

- a doubling of frequency of London to Preston services, and adding more capacity to Chester and North Wales

As above. I think this is new to the franchise...

- Reducing Standard Anytime fares by 15% on average
These fares are eye watering anyway so 15% off isn't a great deal. These fare have increased by far more over the Virgin years than on East Coast and Great Western franchises.

I didn't realise that for the increase, but yes, those are massively priced and pretty much means any normal person will be sticking within the very limiting offpeak times, because they don't want to pay around 160 quid day return to london.

I think Virgin did do some bad things on this line (the ludicrous peak times thing, the massive price increases, cutting down number of advances to tiny amounts). However, they also improved the trains, and the service and in general gave us a train service which compared to european trains for a while.

I can't imagine First will improve much at all, and I'm pretty sure they'll keep all the bad things Virgin did, and leverage more cash out of those, and invent new ways of making the service worse...

As for the idea (not a bad one) of dropping some first class carriages to put more standard ones in, I always thought this was a condition of the franchise to have those.

It's not. Virgin decided on the configuration, which is why on Friday evenings First Class carriages are "declassified" to cope with Standard Class demand.

Notice no use of 'improvement' here. These are what I'd refer to as 'trundlies', slower trains. I really have no doubt that this will take at least 50% longer to get there. I'm not an expert, I'm guessing from using various services across the country, but I don't think they can hit the speeds of a Voyager or Pendelino.

InterCity 125's are some of the most popular trains in the country - the seats line up with windows, there's plenty of luggage space and they are comfortable.

I also got the impression that these weren't allowed in the last franchise, that Wrexham and Shrewsbury (was that the name?) had the right to run those, but only by the back rounds and dump people in the middle of nowhere. That these were only an option once W&S went bust.

Nope - Virgin blocked Wrexham and Shropshire from stopping at "their" stations, while starting a direct service from Wrexham themselves. A town they had previously ignored.
Wrexham & Shropshire's service was superb. And Virgin (the company that "thrives" on competition) put them to sleep.

Virgin Trains also forced a judicial review on Southern Trains, who wanted to start a Milton Keynes > Croydon service. Southern were finally allowed to run the trains. Crucially, Virgin don't operate any services on this route, but still tried to block the service. They would get more revenue by people travelling Milton Keyes to Euston, taking the tube to Victoria and getting a train from there.

I think Virgin did do some bad things on this line (the ludicrous peak times thing, the massive price increases, cutting down number of advances to tiny amounts). However, they also improved the trains, and the service and in general gave us a train service which compared to european trains for a while.

Virgin didn't do a lot really, a specification of their franchise was to replace the aging locomotive hauled services with new trains. That was built into the franchise.

I can't imagine First will improve much at all, and I'm pretty sure they'll keep all the bad things Virgin did, and leverage more cash out of those, and invent new ways of making the service worse...

Industry experts say that First have completely transformed the Great Western franchise to something that is well regarded. Certainly, my last few trips have been excellent. Yet this is also the company that was threatened with the sack if they didn't improve, such were the complainta against them.

And those figures again: First exercised a "we can walk away" clause in Great Western to avoid paying £826m over the next three years. They promise approx. £392m a year for West Coast, based on projection of growth of 10.4% a year.

Over the course of the Virgin Trains the massive growth has been 10.2% a year. So First are really basing their figures on the economy turning the corner and roaring ahead.

It's not. Virgin decided on the configuration, which is why on Friday evenings First Class carriages are "declassified" to cope with Standard Class demand.

Is this about one of the coaches? Usually G, the one between standard and first? I thought that had only happened recently...

It is intriguing why they'd keep so many first class carriages. I travelled first class on their service a bit, and its normally empty yes, once or twice on a friday afternoon, its half full. But never full. They'd surely make more money by selling cheaper tickets or making less carriages. I can't find a reason why they didn't...

Then again, I'd barely bother buying a first class ticket for any of the other operators. Perhaps cross country occasionally.

InterCity 125's are some of the most popular trains in the country - the seats line up with windows, there's plenty of luggage space and they are comfortable.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they're the most popular trains because the operators never bothered to get new ones, and they just used whatever rolling stock they got given when the franchise was handed over? My memories of these are all the air conditioning being broken, because people leave the windows open. Those ones? Automatic doors opening and shutting regularly?

But fair point on luggage space. It was another of those baffling decisions on those trains which I never quite understood. They removed so much luggage space, and good lord, would it have killed them to make a bit more space so you'd fit some overhead (I believe they improved that, they used to be even less).

Nope - Virgin blocked Wrexham and Shropshire from stopping at "their" stations, while starting a direct service from Wrexham themselves. A town they had previously ignored.
Wrexham & Shropshire's service was superb. And Virgin (the company that "thrives" on competition) put them to sleep.

Virgin Trains also forced a judicial review on Southern Trains, who wanted to start a Milton Keynes > Croydon service. Southern were finally allowed to run the trains. Crucially, Virgin don't operate any services on this route, but still tried to block the service. They would get more revenue by people travelling Milton Keyes to Euston, taking the tube to Victoria and getting a train from there.

I didn't know about the Milton Keynes one, and yes, I tried W&S (I knew the name was wrong), it was very good even with the old rolling stock. Not enough of their services a day though.

But I can understand why they'd not allow a fast competing operator to take their main customers (say from Wolverhampton and Birmingham New Street) on an alternate route to London. Galling as it is. That bit I do understand.

Virgin didn't do a lot really, a specification of their franchise was to replace the aging locomotive hauled services with new trains. That was built into the franchise.

So why is it not built into any of the other long distance franchises? First Great Western? East Coast line?

Industry experts say that First have completely transformed the Great Western franchise to something that is well regarded. Certainly, my last few trips have been excellent. Yet this is also the company that was threatened with the sack if they didn't improve, such were the complainta against them.

And those figures again: First exercised a "we can walk away" clause in Great Western to avoid paying £826m over the next three years. They promise approx. £392m a year for West Coast, based on projection of growth of 10.4% a year.

Over the course of the Virgin Trains the massive growth has been 10.2% a year. So First are really basing their figures on the economy turning the corner and roaring ahead.

I've been on the First Great Western standard class carriages for short distances, and I didn't find it particularly special, and remembering that, I did wonder why half the seats had those tv screens on the back of them (I'd love to know what they are up to their, tv services? films? adverts?)

But that was kind of my point though, they've now pulled from the Great Western Franchise, haven't they? Seems like a bit sneaky and short termist. I'm sure it was within their contractual rights, but still...

the franchise competition has been axed, no longer awarded to First Group

http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/b ... k-on-track

Blimey, didn't see that coming.

The BBC says the bidding process will be rerun, so Virgin aren't guaranteed to keep the WCML, but I'd be amazed if they don't. What a balls-up!

Blimey, didn't see that coming.

The BBC says the bidding process will be rerun, so Virgin aren't guaranteed to keep the WCML, but I'd be amazed if they don't. What a balls-up!

How can it be rerun? The figures are all out in the open. Total cock up!

Blimey, didn't see that coming.

The BBC says the bidding process will be rerun, so Virgin aren't guaranteed to keep the WCML, but I'd be amazed if they don't. What a balls-up!

How can it be rerun? The figures are all out in the open. Total cock up!

now theres a surprise

:0

How can it be rerun? The figures are all out in the open. Total cock up!

The final bid figures are out in the open, I don't think the process by which the bids were evaluated is.

Having read the discussion above, I find it very difficult to agree with the positive comments on First Great Western. Their rolling stock is ancient, and the leg room in standard is pretty tight, plus other than new seats they don't appear to have invested anything in the Franchise at all.

Compared to the WCML with the modern new London Midland trains, and Virgin's Pendolinos it really is no contest. Virgin are also introducting 11 coach Pendolinos, and lengthening some of the existing 9 coach trains to 11. This will give them 2 more coaches of Standard seating over the 9 coach fleet.

How can it be rerun? The figures are all out in the open. Total cock up!

The final bid figures are out in the open, I don't think the process by which the bids were evaluated is.

Quite - so if by re run what is meant is evaluate the bids properly fair enough.

Having read the discussion above, I find it very difficult to agree with the positive comments on First Great Western. Their rolling stock is ancient, and the leg room in standard is pretty tight, plus other than new seats they don't appear to have invested anything in the Franchise at all.

Compared to the WCML with the modern new London Midland trains, and Virgin's Pendolinos it really is no contest. Virgin are also introducting 11 coach Pendolinos, and lengthening some of the existing 9 coach trains to 11. This will give them 2 more coaches of Standard seating over the 9 coach fleet.

I think the existing rolling stock will be used by who ever the succesful train operating company is.

Having read the discussion above, I find it very difficult to agree with the positive comments on First Great Western. Their rolling stock is ancient, and the leg room in standard is pretty tight, plus other than new seats they don't appear to have invested anything in the Franchise at all.

Compared to the WCML with the modern new London Midland trains, and Virgin's Pendolinos it really is no contest. Virgin are also introducting 11 coach Pendolinos, and lengthening some of the existing 9 coach trains to 11. This will give them 2 more coaches of Standard seating over the 9 coach fleet.

I think the existing rolling stock will be used by who ever the succesful train operating company is.

I understand this but I am saying that First dont have a stellar record of delivering a good customer experience.

I understand this but I am saying that First dont have a stellar record of delivering a good customer experience.

First's much vaunted "thousands of extra seats" on our line was provided by them pressing back into the service the cr*ppy old 5 seats across configuration that the previous franchisee had spent time getting rid of.