VS misapplying APD to lap infant bookings online

*previously posted on FT*

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but VS apparently charges a full YQ and not 10% of YQ like BA for lap infants.

According to flying club that is because the miles cover the "fare", which covers "operational costs" and the YQ covers fuel, which apparently for a transportation company is not an operational cost.

It is bad enough that airlines have managed to hoodwink the public into accepting YQs in perpetuity but charging YQ for lap infants really takes the you know what....

Did I get a bad agent / poorly programmed website or is this policy?

[Darren Wheeler]

A dummy booking shows YQ go from £213 to £235 when an infant on lap is added so that's about 10.4%

As Darren points out 10.4% is the VS figure for a lap infant - not too bad, although I do agree that YQ is a bit of an annoying charge they are trying to masquerade with the taxes.

This caught my eye though..

According to flying club that is because the miles cover the "fare", which covers "operational costs"

Does this mean you are doing a reward booking with miles against an infant fare? I didn't think that was possible.. But if so then it will likely be cheaper to buy an all out infant fare - that will be a straight percentage of the adult one. The BA site does make this clearer at 10% granted.

The policy is that with reward bookings YQ is still chargeable as well as taxes I'm afraid (that will be unlikely to change) and I have rarely seen this discounted (op-ups and the agent getting it wrong being the only two instances I can think of)

Did I get a bad agent / poorly programmed website or is this policy?

Can't comment on the agent as it is likely they were following procedure depending on what you were asking of them. The VS website is very poorly programmed, with a fair many links in the FAQs to out of date or even dead pages. Policy discussed above, hope I have been of some help 8D

This whole YQ thing needs to be stopped - fuel is a cost of doing business, include it in the fare.

I would be happier to pay £500 for a fare than £250 for a fare and £250 for 'YQ'. It's just daft. I don't pay YQ when I get a minicab and I'm sure my fare goes towards his petrol!

I know VS are losing money but if this is correct I will not be flying with the family in UC next year, I would rather pay more to another airline and be treated fairly. My children loved flying Virgin when they were small, they made flying with them a joy and I became a loyal customer as a result, travelling both for business and leisure. Apart from the charge being completely unfair airlines should be reminded that the parent travelling in Y with children in August can also be a J&F pax for the rest of the year v(

[Darren Wheeler]

How do you know you don't pay YQ on a taxi?

You pay the price on the meter, just as you pay the total price on the web, phone etc. The taxi fare will include a fuel portion and arguably VS is open that they charge it. If YQ was scrapped today, fares would not go down by one penny as the fuel cost is still there.

The only place QY sticks in the throat is on reward flights.

YQ generates additional revenue from mileage redemption reward fares - that would be why it will never be folded into the base fare, airlines would take too big a hit if they did. I'd imagine reward availability would also suffer.

And you still have VS agents stating charges for "taxes" when the cost is clearly predominantly SQ, aka "bunce" on a reward booking.

How do you know you don't pay YQ on a taxi?

No bill/invoice/breakdown I receive for any form of travel except with certain airlines ever includes a fuel surcharge. In the same way that my shopping from Tesco doesn't have a wage surcharge on the receipt and my car doesn't have a factory rent surcharge on the purchase invoice.

Fuel is a cost of doing business. Include it fully in the fares and don't split it out.

Why is there a fuel surcharge but not a pilot wages surcharge? Where is the Airbus lease surcharge?

A dummy booking shows YQ go from £213 to £235 when an infant on lap is added so that's about 10.4%

Sorry all I should have made it clearer that this was an award booking.

Darren, have you tried this with a lap infant on an award?

Does this mean you are doing a reward booking with miles against an infant fare? I didn't think that was possible.. But if so then it will likely be cheaper to buy an all out infant fare - that will be a straight percentage of the adult one. The BA site does make this clearer at 10% granted.

The policy is that with reward bookings YQ is still chargeable as well as taxes I'm afraid (that will be unlikely to change) and I have rarely seen this discounted (op-ups and the agent getting it wrong being the only two instances I can think of)

Yes, sorry again, it was an award I was talking about. You can add a lap infant to an award for 10% of the miles, 5k in this case as it was one-way LHR-LAX in UC.

Look at a paid one-way lap infant dummy booking LHR-LAX in UC.

Fare for 1 infant in lap
Fare 1: Carrier VS J1 LON to LAX (rules)
Passenger type INF, one-way fare, booking code J
Covers LHR-LAX (Business)
£624.80
USDA APHIS Fee (XA) £3.20
US Immigration Fee (XY) £4.50
US Customs Fee (YC) £3.50
United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge (UB) £39.75
VS YQ surcharge (YQ) £9.50
VS YQ surcharge (YQ) £2.50
US International Arrival Tax (US) £11.00

Subtotal per passenger £698.95
Number of passengers x1

SUBTOTAL FOR 1 INFANT IN LAP £698.95

The 698.95 GBP fare is mainly 624.80 GBP of the J1INF fare. So the "taxes" are 74.15 GBP. Very reasonable.

Try this on a UC award for 2 people LHR-LAX. 100k miles plus...

TAXES, FEES, CHARGES AND CARRIER IMPOSED SURCHARGES
All Passengers
Description Code Amount
Operating Airline Fuel & Insurance Surcharge YQ GBP 359.00
USA Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service Fee XA GBP 6.40
USA Immigration Service Fee XY GBP 9.00
USA Customs User Fee YC GBP 7.00
UK Air Passenger Duty GB GBP 268.00
UK Passenger Service Charge UB GBP 79.50
Total GBP 728.90

Now with same as above adding lap infant. 105k miles plus....

TAXES, FEES, CHARGES AND CARRIER IMPOSED SURCHARGES
All Passengers
Description Code Amount
Operating Airline Fuel & Insurance Surcharge YQ GBP 371.00
USA Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service Fee XA GBP 9.60
USA Immigration Service Fee XY GBP 13.50
USA Customs User Fee YC GBP 10.50
UK Air Passenger Duty GB GBP 402.00
UK Passenger Service Charge UB GBP 119.25
Total GBP 925.85

So....it looks like I was wrong (and Darren may be correct) in that it is not the YQ that it being misapplied but the APD!

I should note that this is clearly a lap-infant booking (5k miles in UC one-way) NOT infant in their own seat.

Per the HMRC PDF I found lap infants should be exempt from APD...as indeed they are with a cash booking.

3.1.2 Young children
Children below the age of two who are not allocated a separate seat before boarding the aircraft are not chargeable passengers. If a seat is purchased for the infant then APD is chargeable.

So....oops...VS probably unintentionally violating the law and misappropriating taxes.

I think you have been assuming all the additional cost for the infant is down to the YQ when it is not so.

Just did a dummy booking with miles for NYC in Econ

YQ - Adult Only = £120
YQ - Adult + infant = £140

So fuel surcharge for infant = £20 = 16% of the YQ for an adult only.

But for all the fees etc (so inc APD and airport fees)

Adult only = £239.55
Adult + infant= £ 377.50

additional for the infant = £137.95 i.e £20 for YQ and £117.95 for APD/airport fees (i.e the same as for an adult only)

Airports don't charge less for children / infants and neither does the Government for APD for children / infants.

BUT the YQ has been discounted

Miles charge for the infant was 10% of the adult amount.

I think you have been assuming all the additional cost for the infant is down to the YQ when it is not so.

....

Airports don't charge less for children / infants and neither does the Government for APD for children / infants.

BUT the YQ has been discounted

Miles charge for the infant was 10% of the adult amount.

Yes, I said in the previous post I was mistakenly attributing it to YQ.

You are correct that it is APD, but wrong if you believe they should be applying it. Read the reg. I posted, APD does NOT apply to lap infants. Yes to children/infants in their own seat, not to lap infants.

I called VS and it IS a website error. A quote over the phone from them was 791 GBP for 2 Adults + 1 lap infant vs 728 GBP without the lap infant.

Seems the online engine is broken and has been over-collecting APD for lap infants.

[

Yes, I said in the previous post I was mistakenly attributing it to YQ.

But if you look at the times of posting, my response was done at the same time as yours - so I didn't know you had admitted your mistake.

As to the APD for lap infants - you learn something new every day !

I hope VS are going to do something about it and will start processing lots of refunds !

Is using miles for a lap infant that rare? Either that or people just book it over the phone so they can request the correct seats etc at the same time.

I'm surprised this has not been seen before. I was thinking that 4/5k miles UC one-way was a pretty darn good deal compared to 10% of a one-way UC fare. Perhaps with a r/t UC fare the differential is less, but still even 10% of a Z-fare will be a couple of hundred $$$ @ 10% of the fare.

Is using miles for a lap infant that rare? Either that or people just book it over the phone so they can request the correct seats etc at the same time.

I'm surprised this has not been seen before. I was thinking that 4/5k miles UC one-way was a pretty darn good deal compared to 10% of a one-way UC fare. Perhaps with a r/t UC fare the differential is less, but still even 10% of a Z-fare will be a couple of hundred $$$ @ 10% of the fare.

No idea if traveling with lap infants is rare or not (lap tops are more common ) ) ) but I assume it's not totally out of the ordinary.

As to miles - it is still 10% of the adult miles and the miles only really cover the 'base fare' - as you know you still have to pay for the 'extras' like on a cash fare.

But it depends on the individual. Some might say 4k miles on a lap child is a 'waste of miles' but others think it is a bargain. It depends on the value an individual places on their miles.

There is an oft repeated debate about if 17.5k miles for a 'free' CDC is worth it or not. some think it is but others no.

Ditto whether miles + money fares are a good use of miles (or not).

But at the end of the day they are YOUR miles so spend them how you want and who cares how anyone else uses them. Your miles are just as good as anyones !