Passengers removed after Knee Defender argument

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... r-legroom/

I wondered when something like this would happen having read about the devices somewhere a while ago. I can understand both sides of the argument around them, but to refuse when told by CC to remove it is asking to be offloaded!

Seats recline. Live with it or get a bulk head or aisle seat.
It's not worth getting thrown off the plane.
I wonder who pays for the cost of the divert and delay to all the other passengers.

As a slight aside my personal hate is having the back of my seat tapped by someone on the IFE.
Solution fly Upper or in back row of PE.
Simple.

Dick D

An old debate rears its ugly head, on many forums people sanctimoniously call recliners rude, arrogant and many other names because these people dare to recline, oddly its not considered rude to dictate to the person in front what they can and can not do.

SEATS RECLINE GET OVER IT is my motto.

It's a pain in the neck.
Flew PE a few years ago, people in front reclined fully which meant the screen was unwatchable.

Yes seats recline, but is it really too much to alert the passenger first?

Sealink same happened to me in PE bubble, I was staring down at a ladies hairy nostrils most of the time, truth was though the old seat was broken and reclined too far, like I say its not for me to dictate to the person in front I just had to get over it.

Seats made to recline to just grin and bear it the only time we ever had a problem was during meals. Person in front not eating so reclined until I politely asked if they would wait until after we had eaten. Abuse received so informed cc who had a word and seat was returned to upright. Spoke to the guy later on and he apologised saying he was not feeling so good and just wanted to sleep. Only took us ten mins to eat so could not understand the attitude. Live and let live, but just think about other people sometimes

It's in situations like these when a little polite request is best proffered, rather than getting into an argument over it. Seats do recline for a reason, perhaps too far but that's the airline's problem not pax, but some people do take advantage and don't give consideration to the pax behind.

I remember on a flight from Canada we had 2 pax in front who reclined their seats as far they would go as soon as the seatbelt signs went off. The thing is, for most of the flight they sat upright playing games on their mobile devices on their tables! When meal service came around they were asked twice by CC to return their seats to upright so we could eat our meals. They ignored the CC requests and didn't get a third. Instead the CC stopped serving and forcefully uprighted the aisle seat with a command to the other pax to correct hers or else. I got to eat my dinner off the table instead of resting on my manboobs! From then on they reclined their seats only partly, I don't think they wanted anymore truck with the CC!

I never ask the person behind just in case they say no and you end up with a scene. Out of courtesy however I always recline slowly in a single motion giving them the opportunity to move anything like a laptop that would be in the way. It does annoy me when you get a person who reclines as soon as the crew sit down for takeoff and rams it backwards.

I must admit that when I'm on my travels in whichever cabin I'm in if I'm not eating or having a drink at the bar I will generally try and sleep, I will always let the person behind me (where appropriate) know that I will be reclining my seat so I can have a good rest as I often have a good few hours drive at the other end.

I have my own version of the knee defender, my own knees. I am six foot six and if I am flying short haul I always book an extra leg room seat. However on a flight last year with Monarch an aircraft change from A321 to A330 ended up with my seat becoming a non legroom seat with only 29" pitch. Long story short to fit into this seat, the seat in front not only couldn't recline it was pushed so far forward that the person in front couldn't sit there. Funnily enough a leg room seat was then made available.

I don't have a problem with people reclining, but on my last flight in PE the guy in front had his rotten hands behind his head, rubbing the top of my screen and around the top of the seat - dirty nails and bitten cuticles! It was the first and last time in PE for me!

I must admit that when I'm on my travels in whichever cabin I'm in if I'm not eating or having a drink at the bar I will generally try and sleep, I will always let the person behind me (where appropriate) know that I will be reclining my seat so I can have a good rest as I often have a good few hours drive at the other end.

And when was the last time you had someone behind you Dom ? , it's normally a window isn't it !

Seats recline. Live with it or get a bulk head or aisle seat.

Solution fly Upper or in back row of PE.
Simple.

Dick D

Actually no it's not simple! Not everyone can afford £££ to travel PE or UC !
and just because one travels in economy it doesn't give other passengers the right to act in an arrogant and selfish manner.

On a trip to Orlando many years back, passenger in front reclined his PE during take off. Repeated attempts by the cabin crew fell on deaf ears, my solution was simple, I changed seats with my three year old grandson and told him to forget all we said about sitting still ):

The bottom line is, if a seat reclines then you are entitled to recline it. Yes of course its good to check behind you first and do it slowly and if only the cc would ask/tell passengers to upright their seats when the food is served, and enforce the request, there wouldn't be half the problems. For me there are worse things than having the seat in front of you reclined i.e. children kicking the back of your seat for the entire flight or someone dabbing at the IFE screen continually.
Lets face it if airlines didn't try to cram pax in worse than cattle there probably wouldn't be half the problems in the first place. The first thing I will buy when I win the lottery will be a private jet - love traveling but hate the flights.

One solution would be for airlines to fit the newer style seats that recline within their shells - so the seat cushions slide forward - rather than reclining backwards.

Though of course that won't happen overnight.

What made the incident in the US worse that the woman deliberately threw a cup of water over the man which legally is assault.

I don't know tontybear, I've only ever heard and read absolutely terrible things about thosr shell seats on Cathay Pacific! So much so that I ended up not booking a flight with them because of the risk of ending up on one of their older planes (yes they are removing them from the refurbished aircrafts) .

I'm in the seats recline get over it camp.
Whenever I recline I do it slowly and try not to disturb the pax behind and when eating always put the seat upright. Yes it annoys me when the person in front is eating in full recline but I get over it.

Never understood why seats get pushed back when:-
1) it is a small kid and they are playing their own Gameboy or whatever - why does the seat need to go back?
2) Someone is just watching the IFE
3) meal times

[preiffer]

Chris is right - this is ALL (nowadays) down to basic seat design.

Look at SQ's economy seating: If you want to "recline", your seat moves forward and slightly down. You lose knee room, not the person behind. If that's a more comfortable position for you, great - if not, keep it upright.

There is no excuse for the appalling standards of many airlines' seating in Economy in 2014 (including, and especially, that of VS). It's been what, 50 years, since the design that they are all still based on was first produced and (apart from CX/SQ and a handful of others) the airlines have not innovated at all in that period of time. v( n(

Seats recline. Live with it or get a bulk head or aisle seat.

Solution fly Upper or in back row of PE.
Simple.

Dick D

Actually no it's not simple! Not everyone can afford £££ to travel PE or UC !
):

Me included most of the time. Unless I can manage to scrimp and save points and airmiles to upgrade.
The Simple was meant to be tongue in cheek meerkat mode.
Dick D

The ridiculous leg-room in economy is partly the consequence of the price pressure airlines have on selling these seats.
With the public now demanding such low competitive fares for air travel, any airline that truly innovated economy travel, and priced it accordingly, would probably be out of business very quickly.
The cost per mile of air travel, in real terms, has dropped steadily over the past three decades, to about a quarter of what it was in 1970. It's plateaued a little over the past few years (with low inflation, and ticket price rises) but remains a highly competitive and affordable product.
The whole industry is faced with the same problem. Some of the blame lies with the 'low-cost' airline spurt, which has had the knock-on effect of 'full cost' airlines lowering their prices, and their service.

Never understood why seats get pushed back when:-
1) it is a small kid and they are playing their own Gameboy or whatever - why does the seat need to go back?
2) Someone is just watching the IFE
3) meal times

Oh I had those this year, a 9 hour flight with full recline w**kers, take-off, meals, IFE, parents and kids. They were bulkhead as well so no need for it.

But I don't agree with the knee defender instrument, the person in front is entitled to recline their seat as long as they're not unreasonable about it.

It's a thorny one. But here's a different take on it. I'm lucky enough to rarely fly economy these days (just around the Gulf, shortish sectors - on longer haul I fly business or first). But on some routes there is no business or first....

I'm 6'5". I'm blessed/cursed with thighbones that are long enough to hit the back of a non-reclined seat when I am sat upright. If the person in front of me tries to recline - that is not going to happen. They can moan and whinge as much as they like, that seat is not coming towards me because it physically CAN'T.

If they insist on trying, I could construe that as assault, since it would cause me pain.

I never recline economy seats, unless I am at the back of a cabin with no-one behind me. I expect the same courtesy.

It's a thorny one. But here's a different take on it. I'm lucky enough to rarely fly economy these days (just around the Gulf, shortish sectors - on longer haul I fly business or first). But on some routes there is no business or first....

I'm 6'5". I'm blessed/cursed with thighbones that are long enough to hit the back of a non-reclined seat when I am sat upright. If the person in front of me tries to recline - that is not going to happen. They can moan and whinge as much as they like, that seat is not coming towards me because it physically CAN'T.

If they insist on trying, I could construe that as assault, since it would cause me pain.

I never recline economy seats, unless I am at the back of a cabin with no-one behind me. I expect the same courtesy.

Likewise I'm 6'6" and fly F or J on long haul and due to status usually get legroom seats if flying short haul, but if I don't there's no way the seat in fronts reclining.