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As my previous message isn't allowed to be shown, I think it's fair to say that the only way Virgin are going to get any better is to criticize them and show them where they're going wrong - but obviously the people who run this website think both Virgin and BA are perfect and are good value for your money, when the opposite is the case!

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I totally agree that the only way for any company (VS Included) to improve is to listen to its customers, particularly their complaints. However I disagree that people on this site think VS is perfect. Far from it - a quick review of the travel reports section reveals a host of negative comments, the infamous Good Night Flight thread was a thorough critism of VS, and there are a number of threads here about the perceived cost cutting by VS affecting their customers' experience. As to posters here thinking BA is great, you have to be joking!
Value for money is of course a personal perception, and if your perception is that VS is not good VFM, well fine. But perhaps you might offer some supporting evedence.
I think the real problem here is that you seem to be starting to use this site to troll or to conduct you own personal vendetta. I am afraid that this is not what our members want, and is very much against the rules of the site. If you want a well reasoned debate about VS's failing then that is great - you will get much support here for your arguements I suspect. But if you are looking for a soap box to rant from, then I suggest other airline forums would be better venues.

[Nottingham Nick]

Totally agree with Sailor's reply to the OP.

This site is not full of VS apologists, and is certainly not populated by lots of people defending BA

We don't censor or, discourage any evidenced critisism, in fact we encourage it. There have been many good debates on here with strong opinions for and against various VS policies.

What we don't allow is unsupported, rambling, flamebait that does nothing to promote debate and is merely insulting.

Nick

Virgin is certainly not good value for money. They charge perhaps £350 more for a few more inches and a glass of champagne in their P/E, which is nothing to be honest - rip off. My main gripe is the service staff, I have never flown BA but what I've heard is that the overall service is better but the aircraft are tattier and the flights are slightly more expensive. I'm not frightened to say it, I don't enjoy flying Virgin for the only reason - the service staff, who are belligerent and rude. The ONLY reason I fly with them is because their aircraft are newer. I don't fly with them because I love them! And I'm not on a rant- I would like to know what other people think- when they are spending their hard earned money...

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[Nottingham Nick]

tubelad

The value for money of PE over economy is a well debated subject here. The bottom line is that - if VS were charging too much for PE - no one would buy the seats.

Using the age of the aircraft as the total benchmark for choosing a carrier is an interesting methodology. [?].

We live in a free society and, if you don't like the attitude of VS staff then you have a perfect right to use another carrier.

I have to say though, it is the excellent attitude of the VS staff that keeps me, and many others, flying with Virgin again and again.

For reasons you still haven't explained, you obviously have major issues with VS. For this debate to continue, it is only right that you evidence these grievances and let us comment on them.

Nick

[Decker]

OK that's a bit more like a reasoned debate . People who fly PE in their droves seem to think it is good value for money. If your sole experience of flying is charter then it is unlikely you will. If you have experience flying other carriers then you'll realise they operate as close to a cartel as they are legally allowed to do - meaning there isn't much difference in costs for size of cabin provided in Economy and "Economy Plus".

Now the majority of people here love flying with VS because of the crew. You seem to have had an experience that is at odds with this. If you check this link here you'll see that the average of hundreds of trip reports is that the crew are better than good but fall short of excellent. This naturally begs the question why? A lot of people react to how they are treated by others and VS crew are human too.

To fly on an airline because their aircraft are newer, is, in my opinion a very strange basis on which to choose an airline. The majority of people seem to go on safety record, quality of service etc etc.

To summarise - to see what other people think, check out the link above. Regretfully the opinions expressed there don't accord with your own but you have that right.

Have to say quite honestly that I've not had any real problems with any service staff I have come into contact with for VS / BA or even United.

Sure, some individuals are better than others but then don't we all have off days? Take a step back and think about how you are treating the staff and are they not just reacting to the way they are being treated (most people return aggression with aggression)

I've had excellent flights with VS, OK flights with VS and one below par flight with VS. As long as you write to the company and let them know when service isn't as expected or promised then you should get a satisfactory outcome.

To summarise, my hard earned cash still flows Virgin's way and as long as they continue to offer a product that I like, it will continue to do so. If and when they don't, well I have a choice to look elsewhere

{Deleted as ad hominem - continue and face suspension}

The Value of the PE product has come up here before - See here for example. Quite a number of posters feel, like you, that it is a lot to pay for an extra few inches of leg room. As someone who is well over 6' and a few pounds overweight, it is personnally worth the extra spend. I really struggle to sit in a VS Y seat, especially if the seat in front has the entertainment system box under it. Of course one could get into why VS's standard Y pitch is 32" when quite a few airlines work with 34". Personnally I think 32" really is not good enough for western population these days. I suppose you are also paying for a couple of little extras in PE like the bubbly and an "exclusivity feeling". But how much can one glass of bubbly and a small curtain behind you be worth? On the 747's PE is upstairs I suppose, but still...... Either way, the market is the ultimate arbiter on this, and the load factors in PE seem to indicate that it is a very popular choice, even at £300-£400 more.

I have flown with BA on a number of occassions. My experience of them was that their staff appeared more stuffy, and I have to say I prefer the more relaxed attitude on VS although IMHO there is not really a lot in it. I think I can honestly say I have always found VS staff to be exceptionally friendly and laid back. This was, always the case, even when I was red. Although it has to be said that customer service (over the phone) improved dramatically for me when I got to gold, and more recently I seem to have been getting some really extra-special good treatment. I have certainly not come across a beligerant or rude VS staff member. I don't think the same can be said for some of their ground agency staff at overseas airports - I was horrified by their rep staff at Cape Town.

...And I don't want Virgin staff to be human- try to be human because it never works. I'd rather have a buffet with no service staff or food served by robots;)

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...And i dont want Virgin staff to be human- try to be human because it never works. Id rather have a buffet with no service staff or food served by robots

Nope, that one's gone right over my head. Not sure what the point/joke you are making is.

A buffet will not help when you're locked down due to turbulence...

[Scrooge]

After reading both thread's (the first one I repied to BTW) I am starting to see a certain pattern here and it remind's me of something or someone?

Originally posted by jetwet1
After reading both thread's (the first one I repied to BTW) I am starting to see a certain pattern here and it remind's me of something or someone?

I'm sitting here eating an Indian meal, not knowing what you're talking about

Originally posted by Richard28
I'm sitting here eating an Indian meal,

Good Grief! You're not flying to Kenya as well are you?

I find I do want Virgin Staff to be human.
I've flown economy and business on both Virgin and Singapore and whilst in both classes the food was better on SQ it was the friendliness of the staff on VS that gives it the edge.
As I commented in a Trip Report a while back. The SQ staff were very pleasant and courteous and couldn't do enough for you, but they were a bit distant and more "going through he motions", if that makes sense.
With VS you feel like they're much more your friend. Now I know this all sounds a bit Californian and touchy feely but it's true. I'm not expecting them to be telling you their life story but have had many a nice chat with them at take off and landing when sitting in the upstairs exit row seats. This is the x factor for me.

I personally find PE and UC ranges from okay to good VFM, whilst I can afford them I'll pay it, when I can't I'll be back in Y.

Tubelad, your Avatar says Silver, i guessed you have flown VS a fair bit to achieve this. Are these gripes recent or long running?

Dean

No one on this site wants to block out critism, as it happened I had a totally "crap" flight last Nov because of snotty cabin crew, and no one on here had a go at me for expressing my opinions on the matter.

As it happens I am big enough to know sometimes crap happens and the particular crew member may have been having more crap in his life than me at the time, Hell I am a Funeral Director and sometimes my job makes me feel like crap and I know full well each client i meet thinks they are the only ones in the world that are needing my services right now, but I have to keep smilin and doin my stuff even when it sometimes makes you feel like crap. So I give them another chance and have booked another flight ( can't wait ) but no one stopped me from letting my feelings known on here.

One things for sure though, if you go around expecting someone to kiss your ass, they tend to kick it, give a FA a polite smile a please, and a thankyou and 99 times out of 100 you will get the same back.

BA[V], Virgin[^] and thats even after a bad flight.

As far as price if I want the extra space thats my priority so I pay it, if i want to save money I will stay at home with my playstation.

Tubelad.
I think you really do miss the reson why Cabin crew are on the flight.
They are not there primarily to be a waiter/Waitress to your needs, but are there for emergency and are required to be there by the various aviation authorities.
I am sure they would like a buffet service.

As a matter of interest, which is your favourite airline then?

Yes I am a silver member; I fly quite a bit with Virgin as I have said - and the only reason I do is that their planes are newer. Each time I fly I feel like the service I'm receiving is being delivered by a group of people graduated from hairdressing school or something like that - i.e. people that have no idea about how to deliver customer service that is transparent and non-judgemental.

Can someone tell me why I can't book a UCS trip using my miles on the website and that i have to make a phone call? I have about 115,000 miles.

{Mod - usual - beginning to suspect it is deliberate}

[Scrooge]

The only thing I can think off is that there are no G seats left on the flight's you are looking for,trust me thats something i've been through a few times with VS and am not to happy about.

Also I tok a BA flight lax-lhr out in club back in wt+ and I have to say the crew's on those flight were great,a lot more laid back then I remember BA crew's so maybe they are getting the message?

I always think of airlines like restaurants. Have a good meal/flight you go back, but have a bad one you tell everyone and don't go back!
Flying PE for us is a personal choice extra legroom wider seats etc. For us that is worth the extra cash. As to VA staff being human I can say with personal experience that they can be the kindest and most caring aircrew around. But everyone is allowed an off day[}:)]

[preiffer]

Originally posted by tubelad
Yes I am a silver member; I fly quite a bit with Virgin as I have said - and the only reason I do is that their planes are newer. Each time I fly I feel like the service I'm receiving is being delivered by a group of people graduated from hairdressing school or something like that - i.e. people that have no idea about how to deliver customer service that is transparent and non-judgemental.

Then stop flying with them. Simple [?]

Your choice - your money. By the sound of it, you have little time for them anyway so why continually put yourself through the experience time after time?

Interesting if somewhat unusual debate in this thread. For what its worth, in over 10 years of flying with VS, I have had many good flights, a very few less than perfect and a few exceptionally good. In most cases the variation has depended on the crew and I think many of us understand that sometimes a particular crew works together much better than some others.

I am by no means not critical of VS - some of their cost cutting measures in recent years has made me feel that they are not as special as they used to be. Having said that, a few flights on a number of other large carriers puts it in perspective and I still believe VS is one of the best.

Just one final example if I may - last November my wife and I travelled to MCO on holiday. Now I used to travel that route nearly every month some years ago but have not been there for several years.
When checking in for our return flight I noticed one of the original VS check in staff standing behind the desks. He instantly recognised me and came across the check in and greeted me like a long lost friend. Even though he hadn't seen me in over 4 years and must have seen thousands of faces he still remembered me!

Altogether, that's why personally, VS is my airline of choice.

(mind you, could be he remembered me as a troublemaker!!)

AFAIK, BA fly everywhere that VS does, so why not fly them? I'm sure many of BA's aircraft are a lot newer than some of VS' aircraft. So why do you fly VS, complain and then continue flying. Also, if you have 115,000 miles, then unless you've had really bad odds, I don't see how you can have such a bad opinion of the crew. Most flights are great - that's why we fly with them!:D

Cheers,
VS045

Flying an airline because their aircraft are new is quite silly if you ask me. I know a bit about aviation and planes, and lots of the time the newest planes aren't the best...

As many have continuously stated, if you don't like them, don't fly with them.